L. SOJINI: THE INTERVIEWS
This is the collection of interviews I've had with media practitioners, advertisers, writers and artists, to say nothing of the taxman and the entrepreneur.
Also by L. Sojini
Emzana: Shack Recollections
Uncle Sbu and His Seven-Year-Old Nephew
Uncle Sbu and His Two Nephews, Vusi and Malandela
Why Buy Books When You Can Buy Beer?
Copyright © 2022 L. Sojini
All rights reserved. Printed in South Africa. No part of this book may be used or reproduced in any manner whatsoever without written permission except in the case of brief quotations embodied in critical articles or reviews.
For information contact:
bookstarrroy@gmail.com
Book and Cover design by: L. Sojini
Contents
1. Introduction
2. Kerry Botha
3. Tonya Khoury
4. Matthew Buckland
5. Mike Stopforth
6. Kyle Fraser
7. Liffey Speller
8. Jay Samit
9. Mark Galeotti
10. Chris Jordan
11. Belinda Mountain
12. Gillian Rightford
13. Stephen Horn
14. Hagen Engler
15. Thinus Ferreira
16. Mandy Collins
17. Sarah Britten
18. Naledi Matuotane
19. Julian Ribeiro
20. Johan Van Loggerenberg
dedication
The first person I think of when it comes to the dedication page is my father. I dedicated my first book, a novel, to him.
And I also think of my sister and cousins. I’ve also dedicated books to them.
But, let me dedicate another book to my father. Growing up, he always had a question.
She’s a good – loves her mama
Loves Jesus and America too
– Tom Petty
introduction
The first time I did these interviews, I was young. I was in my twenties. Now, I’m in my thirties. I only had written one novel. I hadn’t written for the papers. And I was like four years away from my MA in Creative Writing. But long before my interviews, maybe even before I wrote my first novel in 2009, I might have stumbled across the interviews in The Paris Review.
In 2022, I’m back again at them interviews. I have an MA, I’ve self-published about two novels. I’m back on Twitter, got my account verified.
How far can I go with these interviews this time? Back then, I’m not sure I did more than five or six interviews. Back then I believed if I published an interview with a well-known media practitioner, I’d get massive traffic on my website. It never happened. This time, I’ll compile the interviews into a book and see what traction I can get from my efforts. If I can do at least 40 interviews, I’ll have at least 40 000 words. (As I edit and format the book, I realize this was an ambitious target).
Thinking of it, I’ve never stopped doing these interviews – perhaps not with much ferocity. In 2016, I sure did an interview with Jay Samit. In 2019, I did one with Mark Galleotti. In 2020, I sure did no interview. In 2021, I did a couple with some Twitter personalities. But these were interviews other people initiated. Now in 2022, I guess I’m doing the interviews because I want to.
When I do these interviews, I read quite a lot. I mean, how do you ask people questions if you don’t know stuff about them?
What I love about the advertising industry is that its people are welcoming. I don’t remember anybody rejecting the offer to be interviewed. Of course, not everyone responds to my interview requests, so I guess I’ve bagged myself countless rejections.
I guess it’s true for any industry, but as I research my interview subjects I get a wider perspective of the advertising industry. This is the closest I’ll ever get to operating a beat. Of course, I’ve covered books but that was then. Now, I get to see who are the players in the ad industry. I learn about their connections and histories.
In 2017, I went to the SABC to do a radio interview on SAFM. This was two years before I got my MA, but this wasn't my first radio interview. I had done my first major interview, if you can call it that, in 2012. The first one had been done telephonically on a Wednesday night. For the 2017 one, which took place on a Sunday, I wanted to be there so I travelled from Tembisa where I was staying to Auckland Park. But the presenter wasn't at the Auckland Park studios. She was in Cape Town. But the interview went okay. I remember remarking afterwards that I had been laughing on national radio.
One of the questions the producer asked me was: does writing have money? I think I remember saying 'Yeah, even though for me it hasn't made money'. But then two years later I won a R100k scholarship to go a degree in Creative Writing. And, I'd even presented a radio show myself and become a producer if only for a while. Then two years later (2021), I was awarded a writing grant. But where I'm going at is that I'm ripe for another interview. I'm older than last time. I've got a bigger project worth promoting than the little booklet I'd compiled in 2017.
The temptation is to including only the freshest interviews, forgetting old
ones.
I've written about how interviewing people relies on you having to read their writing. This applies to writers. But it takes extra research to come up with questions for designers or gamers. You have to know their work. What you're trying to do is work their story back so you can retell it, or find questions that makes you talk about their thinking. With a copywriter, you can sort of bank on their love for words and writing, although people you'd consider non-writers can string along a number of paragraphs. With designers or gamers, one tends to think that they’re shy and dislike writing.
I like reading the answers people send back, but when I’m reading interviews done by other people, I think I’m more fascinated by the questions. I’m curious as to what question was asked, and how it was answered. I think the best question is one the reader will involuntarily want to answer as if they were the subject of the interview.
I think interview subjects are attracted to interviews because they’re curious as to what questions will be asked.
Sometimes the question seems strange. I’m currently reading an interview Don DeLillo did with The Paris Review. In a short question, the interviewer asks ‘What got you so interested in mathematic?’ The question sounds strange since DeLillo is a novelist, not a mathematician. But, novelists deal with many subjects, don’t they? With a strange question like that, of course the reader is curious to read the answer.
Kerry Botha
She returned her answers in blue font – that’s Kerry Botha, the founder of Pleiades Media – when we had this email conversation in 2015. I remember reading about Pleiades Media from some public relations website. I managed to get in contact with Kerry through her daughter, Sarah.
One of the questions I liked to ask at this time was ‘Do you like to listen to music while working?’ Surely, I got it right that all the people I interviewed had jobs, but what on earth was I thinking, thinking that people had time for music while working?
Anyway, Kerry in responding to my questions, also took time to correct some typos in my questions, as well as adding question marks to them.
L.SOJINI: You say, on your website, that ‘you’re the most networked people you will [ever] meet’. Why is this important – not only to you, but everyone in the media business?
KERRY BOTHA: The longer I have been in business, the more I realise just how important relationships are in the context of helping others to shine or appreciating them for who they are and what they have helped you achieve. In terms of being the ‘most networked’ person, I think that is more a reflection of the length of time that I have been in business than anything else!
L.SOJINI: How can one, then, go about expanding his/her network?
KERRY BOTHA: I believe that there are bases that should be covered – LinkedIn and Facebook profiles, expanding your Twitter following etc. – but I think it has everything to do with consistency and offering to help others do better business wherever and whenever you can.
So I try and put people in touch with others who can add value to their own businesses or circumstances. I don’t think about what’s in it for me, but rather how it could benefit them.
L.SOJINI: You’ve worked with brands like Vodacom and Apple. Why do they come to you? In other words, what does Pleiades Media know that no other media companies know?
KERRY BOTHA: I started out in PR with a passion for providing the media with quality articles and meetings that would be worth a journalist’s while. I have never deviated from that as a priority. As a result, I have been successful in building credible relationships within the media space and helping clients get published. That began a reputation for delivery. I also know a lot about business having worked with a lot of companies over the years, so aligning a business’s strategy to the execution of a communication strategy has become second nature.
L.SOJINI: What do you like most about the media industry, or your work?
KERRY BOTHA: I love the energy of news and I love helping to make my clients and the people around me shine.
L.SOJINI: What do you like least?
KERRY BOTHA: Sometimes the politics of human interactions gets in the way of getting the job done.
L.SOJINI: What advice would you give to today’s media start-ups?
KERRY BOTHA: What ever you do do it with excellence, integrity and credibility.
L.SOJINI: Sure, a media or PR company has to be top quality; produce top quality results all the time. Any tips on how one can maintain quality performance?
KERRY BOTHA: There are no short cuts. No space ever for arrogance. Reputations are built on reliability, consistency and strong delivery.
L.SOJINI: What’s the best advice you have ever been given?
KERRY BOTHA: Persevere and stick to what you are passionate about
L.SOJINI: Favourite song?
KERRY BOTHA: The Power Ballads: ‘Living on a Prayer’ – Bon Jovi; ‘I love Rock & Roll’ – Joan and the Jett; ‘Get On Your Boots’ – U2.
L.SOJINI: Favourite song to listen to while working?
KERRY BOTHA: I don’t generally listen to music when I am working. My daughters do though!
L.SOJINI: Favourite quote?
KERRY BOTHA: ‘I am in the world to change the world’ – Kathe Kollwitz.
L.SOJINI: Let’s talk a bit about Pleiades Media. What was the starting point?
KERRY BOTHA: For 20 years I was ‘Kerry Botha PR’ and then I felt the name was too limiting as the industry was expanding in the digital space, so I changed the name to ‘Pleiades Media’ to encompass everything to do with media, to provide alternative ways of engaging with communities and to offer clients business model strategies that would help them meet the challenges of the future.
L.SOJINI: Is it challenging to run a media business? If so how do you manage to survive?
KERRY BOTHA: It is very challenging juggling perceptions, expectations, myriad personalities and the realities of cashflow. I have faith, I laugh a lot and I genuinely enjoy people that I interact with. I don’t believe in debt and I wake up every day excited about what the day will bring. I think that enthusiasm is infectious.
L.SOJINI: Besides PR, what else do you do?
KERRY BOTHA: I am actively involved in my church, social projects, family, gym, and take an art class every week.
L.SOJINI: How did any of your ‘big projects’, come about?
KERRY BOTHA: Confluence of chance meetings and word of mouth.
L.SOJINI: Dream project?
KERRY BOTHA: I am working on two right now. We are assisting an international auditing firm to innovate and prepare for the auditing firm of tomorrow. We are also helping a major telecommunications client to relaunch a moblie payments platform that can change people’s lives by providing ready access to financial services.
L.SOJINI: About success now. Do you think successful people are made or born?
KERRY BOTHA: There is no success without effort.
L.SOJINI: Finish this: To be successful…
KERRY BOTHA: Is to live fulfilled while positively influencing and impacting the lives of others.
Tonya Khoury
This interview I did with Tonya Khoury dates back to 2014. I think Tonya had just started ROi Africa. Nowadays, her company goes by the name Acumen Media.
Looking back at the emails, I remember I had to go through someone to bag the interview, and when I sent Tonya the link, she was so excited.
I then republished the interview in 2022, and then tagged Tonya in a tweet, but now I’ve made the interview part of a book!
L.SOJINI: What made you want to try your hand in the media industry?
TONYA KHOURY: It’s a funny story actually. I left London as a courier expert and when I came back to SA, I found that the salaries in courier left a great deal to be desired.
I started working at a recruitment agency and learnt very quickly that this was the best way to cherry-pick a good job. I found a job in media monitoring and I didn’t have a clue what the industry was about. When I walked into their offices, I learnt that people can make money out of chopping up newspapers. I found it fascinating from the first second I arrived.
L.SOJINI: 20 years in the media industry. What lessons have you learned in that long time since you started?
TONYA KHOURY: I have learnt that under promising and over delivering is the easiest way to keep your clients happy. Always, and I mean always, deliver what you have promised and exceed expectation. If you fail, and your delivery is lacking, recover and fast. Drop everything.
L.SOJINI: What would you say made you stick around in this business for that long time?
TONYA KHOURY: Passion! If you cut me open I swear I bleed media monitoring statistics. Taking a massive pile of data from across the world and pin pointing with great accuracy the impact on a brand is simply the sexiest thing on the planet… to me anyway.
L.SOJINI: What do you like most about the media industry, or your work?
TONYA KHOURY: I love the technology advancement of my industry, the fact that media becomes faster and more inventive every day. It is an amazing challenge keeping up the pace.
L.SOJINI: What do you like least?
TONYA KHOURY: My biggest bug bear is that people think this is easy. They think that you just grab a bunch of papers and immediately the data flows with accuracy. The hard truth is that media monitoring is one of the hardest and most expensive business models to execute accurately.
L.SOJINI: Besides media monitoring, what else do you do?
TONYA KHOURY: I scuba dive, it’s the single strongest argument for the existence of God.
L.SOJINI: What advice would you give someone thinking about starting his or her own media company today?
TONYA KHOURY: Firstly, think carefully, write a business plan. Then write it again. Make sure you have longevity, make sure your technology can be adapted for change. Change in our industry is vital.
L.SOJINI: Big media monitoring trend for 2014?
TONYA KHOURY: Integration of data in one place, finally the media industry is seeing social media and news as one medium for attention. An enlightened view of media measurement would be my wish for 2014 but it is likely to be an idea that develops over many years, not just one.
L.SOJINI: Let’s talk about ROI Africa. What does it do, and what does it stand for?
TONYA KHOURY: ROi Africa is the continent’s first fully integrated media monitoring platform. It aggregates content globally across all mediums. We offer smart technology that learns and identifies trends over all media platforms.
For the first time, media monitoring measures the past, manages the present and allows you to predict the future. In South Africa we offer print, radio, television, online news and social media, all readily available and measured, with sentiment, in a click of a button.
ROi in our industry stands for return on investment, one of the key phrases when referring to measuring media but ROi in this instance stands for return on innovation because it is innovative technology and people that allow the ROi measurement to be precise.
There are many sectors of our business that offer a return – return on information, return on intelligence, return on rnsight, return on interaction.
L.SOJINI: What made you want to start your own company?
TONYA KHOURY: I found early on in life that I am an entrepreneur, it is important to me to implement my own ideas.\
I am blessed with a team of people that keep me grounded, however if an idea is a good one, there is no one stopping me executing the concept.
I worked for many bosses in my life and the most frustrating thing is when you are right and the higher power doesn’t see or want to see your vision, regardless of how many times you’ve backed it up.
Today, if I back up an idea with solid research and operational plans, there is nothing to stop me.
L.SOJINI: What’s your next goal?
TONYA KHOURY: One of my biggest passions is media monitoring in the rest of Sub Saharan Africa. Here the need is very different to back home and these markets are reaching for an idea that works and is not a ‘quick fix’.
Being backed by a listed organisation with an African footprint, it means that my next goal is completely realistic.
L.SOJINI: Favourite books?
TONYA KHOURY: I am a fanatic reader, and to name just a few, leaves so many with injustice! So lately, I have escaped my media monitoring world with Mornings in Jenin (a magnificent book about Palestine). I read for the writing, the story is secondary, so my eclectic taste reaches across all genres. I am also an avid self-help reader too.
L.SOJINI: Favourite song to listen to while working?
TONYA KHOURY: I love deep house music, especially local deep house. From my youth, I’m unable to ever let go of U2. Any track will do.
L. SOJINI
L.SOJINI: Let’s talk about success for a minute. How would you describe success, and what do you think one has to do to achieve the success he/she wants?
TONYA KHOURY: Joy is the best measure of success. If you wake with a smile on your face because you’re going to work, you got it right! Wealth and fame are a by-products of success, often people confuse this.
L.SOJINI: Anything you’d like to let people know?
TONYA KHOURY: Obviously our contact information: www.roiafrica.com; but also that media monitoring is so much more than keywords and cutting up papers. What lives in that data set is so valuable if it is used correctly. ROi offers a real return on your media monitoring.
L.SOJINI: Thanks for talking to Success Media.
TONYA KHOURY: Pleasure is all mine.
Matthew Buckland
In 2016, when I conducted this interview with Matthew Buckland, I was working at an internet cafe in Tembisa. I had been a fan of Memeburn. Years earlier I’d unsuccessfully tried to write for the site. So, when I sent Matthew an email asking for an interview, I thought he’d refuse since he was a busy guy. Of course he was busy, but he agreed to do the interview which we did over the phone.
I remember having to take a short break from my work at the internet cafe to speak to a man who had been, as I found from the interview, one of the pioneers, or early users, of the internet in South Africa.
About four years after the interview, I found myself at Rhodes University, the same institution he’d gone to. Unfortunately, this was the year passed away.
While I never interacted with him beyond the interview, I’ll always feel indebted to him for allowing me his time and answers. Whenever I read this interview and see that he was a fan of alt-J, I am reminded of the fact why I love these interviews: they allow me into the lives of other people (at least I get to learn the music they like).
L.SOJINI: Where are you from? And what made you create Memeburn?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I’m from a place called East London – East London and Grahamstown.
I decided to create it because I wanted to create a platform that writes about technological innovation, digital innovation, and I then started Ventureburn ’cause I wanted to write about what was happening in the start-up scene, venture capital scene. Those are all areas that interest me.
As a media practitioner, I think that creating a publication that reports those activities, really benefit me in part of the industry’s growth. It’s part of the digital industry – the start-up industry.
I actually wanted to create this platform to see the growth. To help up in its growth.
L.SOJINI: How has it grown since you started?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: It really has grown. The site has about 300 000 readers at the moment – and about 700 000 page impressions. That’s certainly a lot bigger than it was five years ago. But to be honest with you, we’re not happy with that: we wanna be much bigger; and we’re putting plans in place to grow much-much bigger.
L.SOJINI: Aren’t you scared of competition? I mean someone new might come up in your industry and become like you.
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I’m not afraid of competition at all. I think competition is fantastic. I think it motivates people. When you’re in competition with someone it actually pushes you to a higher level. And not only does competition push you, when you co-operate with your competitors, magical things happen.
So, I don’t see competition, I see an ecosystem. And I think that’s probably a more positive way of looking at the industry; a realistic way of looking at something like the internet where everyone is connected in many ways.
Of course, I’m concerned about competition because competition can affect your market and your product. But I prefer to take a longer view, and say that actually that competition is good.
L.SOJINI: What other names did you have besides ‘Memeburn’?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: ‘Memecube’, ‘Memecast’. ‘Clickspeech’ was the other one. Then we decided on ‘Memeburn’. I actually found the name on a blog of a New York advertiser/marketer. He was talking about how in the internet world there are so many different and new terms for internet and digital products and phenomena and activities, that he said he was suffering from ‘memeburn’. In other words, just too many different and new names. And too many memes.
I thought, jeez! That’s a real name. Let’s rather go with ‘Memeburn’ than ‘Memecube’ and ‘Memecast’.
L.SOJINI: Tell me about your logo. Who designed it? And any plans of changing it?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: The guy who designed it was a colleague of mine I used to work with at the Mail & Guardian. A guy by the name of Vincent Maher. He did it for me as a favour. I didn’t pay him for it. He did it for me as a favour. Out of passion, and because we had a relationship.
The brief to him was I wanted something quite similar to ReadWriteWeb or Mashable. And I wanted a really simple logo. And I wanted a font that’s different. I didn’t want a well-known font. I think we came up with that.
And are there plans to change it? No immediate plans to change it. I’m very happy with the logo as it is for now. We might change it in the future – never say never – but for now we’re happy with it.
L.SOJINI: What are some of the topics you talk about mostly on Memeburn?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: We discuss the latest digital trends, world of social. We discuss the latest in advertising and marketing. We discuss what’s happening in the start-up world. We look at the latest car tech and we look at all the latest gadgets and the latest apps.
L.SOJINI: What’s in a day for an online publisher?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I’m not only an online publisher: I also run an agency – so there are two companies in one: we have a publishing company and an agency.
So I find it quite difficult to switch my time between the two, but I do do it. The day of any online publisher, from my point of view, is I have a management overview on the team of journalists and advertising sales people that consists of attending advertising management meetings, editorial management meetings, sending through stories, dealing with staff issues, hiring people, and looking after the overall strategy of Burn Media – what products we’re gonna create to grow to be even a bigger one.
L.SOJINI: What digital tools can you not live without?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I think I couldn’t do without email, Gmail, our ad server, WordPress, Twitter, Facebook, Excel and all the social networks.
L.SOJINI: What are your favourite music albums?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I’m a huge fan of alt-J. Their album is called Autumn Wave. And Phantogram. Those are my two favourites at the moment: alt-J and Phantogram. I can’t get enough of them.
L.SOJINI: You were one of the early users of the internet. Do you think that has given you an edge over others?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I don’t think it’s given me an edge at all because I was actually a late starter in terms of being an entrepreneur. I only became an entrepreneur at age 35. I’m 40 now. Many people became entrepreneurs as soon as they left university. Certainly, I think it’s given me a lot of experience in digital: I’ve witnessed all the different eras. I’ve witnessed time before Google.com – where the internet was mainly text and academic.
When people were using IOC chat and there was very little imagery on the internet and the web. I was part of those in university when email was first introduced.
I went through the search era when Google came around and invented. The network advertising era ended when Google switched on its advertising network to the Web 2.0 era when companies and publications suddenly realized that their users and audience can play a role in their business and content generation to the social era where social networks were created and discovered.
So, I’ve been through the various internet eras which have seen the most of the change every five years on the internet. That experience has given me a different kind of view. Whether it’s given me an edge or not, I’m not sure. I really think people’s edges really come from a very, very simple formula which is hard work. I think you can achieve and be anything you want to be with hard work and determination.
L.SOJINI: What events is Memeburn involved with?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: Memeburn is a part of many events from NetCafe to Africa – either as a sponsor or active participant. And in terms of charity, Memeburn’s holding company – which is a company by the name of Creative Spark – donates to various charities. And you can actually find out charities on our website if you go to creativespark.co.za
L.SOJINI: Do you think being part of a network makes one successful? And how does one create a network?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I think having a network is absolutely key. You can have a network by building it through time. I think that a network is created by you building good relationships with people. You’re working with people in a constructive manner in a way that can add value. You will find that these networks will return the favour one day.
So, I think it’s about hard work and adding value. It’s about being a decent person; it’s about adding value. And if you do that and you produce that within your network, that network will reward you with work and insight and relationships that come out of the network. So, really, it’s a matter of time and hard work and decent behaviour.
L.SOJINI: What is your favourite quote?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: There are two quotes: Thomas Edison said ‘Genius is 1% inspiration, and 99% perspiration’, and Steve Jobs said ‘I am convinced that about half what separates the successful entrepreneurs from the unsuccessful one is pure perseverance’. So the Thomas Edison one and Steve Jobs – those are that really matter to me.
L.SOJINI: You say Memeburn was successful because you convinced influential people to write for it. How does one become persuasive?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I think you can be persuasive by building a strong, analytical and honest argument. For example, you’re only persuasive if you can convince someone. You can only convince someone if you can point out the facts. To be persuasive, you got to have a strong sense of trends – where things are going.
So, for example, you need to persuade someone to come onboard with you, you’re able to combine your strategy and future trends into one picture to present a convincing picture.
And, also, to be authentic; not put up any airs and graces and pretend you are something you are not. Be very authentic. Be honest about things that are not working, and things that are working; areas you believe that you’re weak at, areas that you believe are strong at. Be an authentic person.
And if you can bring all those things together, I think you can create a persuasive argument and/or be persuasive.
L.SOJINI: Memeburn recently went through a redesign. Tell me about that.
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: We changed the template because we feel that the older template became outdated and the latest design trend tend to look at more of a flat trend – the trend tends to be flat design and big images; and we changed the design to be more in line with that.
Having said that, it’s not a radical design. We didn’t change the design radically. We didn’t leave our users behind. It really was what we call an evolution of the current design.
L.SOJINI: What advice would you give to a person who might want you to invest in their idea?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: I think you need to come prepared. You need to have a good vision. You need to have it written down – on a presentation. It needs to be clear and concise. And it needs to be more than an idea.
So, for example, you need to be executing some of that idea. And, then, the other thing, if it’s a tried and tested idea, then it’s got more chance – I have more chance of investing in it than something that’s completely blue sky!
L.SOJINI: What’s your advice to aspiring entrepreneurs? And what would you like the readers of Memeburn to know?
MATTHEW BUCKLAND: My advice for entrepreneurs is that to never give up, keep persevering, be persistent – fail a hundred times, succeed once, and never give up, and you’ll get to wherever you wanna get to.
Things rarely go right. Things will go wrong all the time. The only thing that will guarantee that things all go right, that will guarantee success, is if you constantly try the same thing over and over again or try different angles to achieve the same thing.
So, quite frankly, never give up, never stop believing in your idea. And you’ll get there!
What I would like the advertisers and readers to know about Memeburn is that we’ve got a strong brand in the market. We believe passionately about innovation and technology in South Africa and Africa. We believe that start-ups are the future.
And we are committed to growing the start-up ecosystem. Memeburn’s gonna get bigger and better as we move to more platforms and formats to expand our brand – not just online, but offline, too.
Mike Stopforth
In 2015, which is like seven years ago, I used to have a very obscure website called Success Mail. For this website, I interviewed a couple of people in the media space. One of the person I interviewed was Mike Stopforth. Then he used to run Cerebra. Nowadays he runs 48HOURS.
I conducted the interview via email. Looking back at the emails, I see that Mike was prompt in his responses, which is a good thing. But, hey, seven years later on, I started a newsletter, this interview being the first issue, but after some time, I decided to turn these interviews into a book.
L.SOJINI: Why the name Cerebra?
MIKE STOPFORTH: I don’t get asked that much. I really have no idea where the name came from.
I remember thinking it sounded pretty cool and then realised it was very similar to Cerebro, the fictional dome in the X-Men comic books that allowed Professor X to connect with all the plant’s mutants with his mind. I might be a bit of a geek.
L.SOJINI: What other names did you have before deciding to go with Cerebra?
MIKE STOPFORTH: I can’t remember having many other considerations.
L.SOJINI: ‘Ideas are a dime a dozen’, you say in one of your articles. Would you say this is the difference between failure and success – to stop thinking about it… and start doing?
MIKE STOPFORTH: It’s one element to success, but certainly not the only factor. I do think the courage and initiative to act on a good idea is a critical trait of successful entrepreneurs.
L.SOJINI: How, then, does one go from a point of ‘thinking about it’, to execution?
MIKE STOPFORTH: By simplifying the idea to its most basic components, evaluating one’s resources and taking a small but deliberate first step. That first step is the hardest part.
L.SOJINI: On the value of partnership, how important are they? Partnerships.
MIKE STOPFORTH: If they are healthy and constructive they are invaluable. But toxic partnerships can destroy a good business in no time. Some entrepreneurs thrive on their own. Some can only function in complementary partnerships.
L.SOJINI: How did you go about creating your own partnerships in the beginning?
MIKE STOPFORTH: Very naturally I guess. I developed a friendship based on trust that evolved into a meaningful business relationship. That’s not to say more formal, business-only partnerships can’t work but I don’t have experience in that regard.
L.SOJINI: What’s the difference these days – the way you build your partnerships now as compared to when you were starting?
MIKE STOPFORTH: Well I only have one significant business partnership to speak to and I wouldn’t change a thing.
L.SOJINI: What are the biggest achievements you’ve had with Cerebra?
MIKE STOPFORTH: Not folding! I think it’s tough to run a small business and I’m grateful we’ve been lucky and had a good run. Our biggest achievements are yet to come though.
L.SOJINI: Let’s talk about Cerebra guides, the eBooks you publish regularly. Nobody seems to publish at the same rate as you guys. What is the purpose of these guides, anyway? And what’s the secret to this publishing rate?
MIKE STOPFORTH: There are many reasons for the ebooks. Firstly they benefit us as they force us to think about what we know and what we do, and to package that knowledge into easily consumable publications.
Secondly, even if the thinking is not 100% perfect, we’re often the first people to say something, or to address a problem, and that helps position us as the thought leaders in this very exciting space.
The publishing rate is due to us prioritising Cerebra work over any other work. When we prioritise Cerebra work we become our own biggest client – something very few agencies manage to achieve.
Our clients respect and admire this because after all, if we can’t do what we sell them for ourselves, how can we expect them to believe we can be successful for them?
L.SOJINI: Would ‘fun’, be your definition of success?
MIKE STOPFORTH: Not exclusively. It’s part of my definition. I think a more accurate definition would be the freedom to choose when to have ‘fun’ and when to ‘work’.
L.SOJINI: What music do you listen to, Mike? And why?
MIKE STOPFORTH: Honestly, pretty much anything and everything. My staff joke that riding to a client in my car is an (involuntary) music education.
They might be exposed to the blues of Johnny Winter, the supernatural voice of Freddy Mercury, the pounding drums of John Bonham, the more modern lilt of Sia, the anger of Slipknot and the contemplation of Ben Howard all in one trip.
My taste in music, like my taste in food, art and film, is incredibly diverse and eclectic.
L.SOJINI: Favourite book and favourite quote?
MIKE STOPFORTH: Favourite book is a tough one, though it would be difficult to find a book that had more impact on my love for literature, fantasy, and rampant imagination than the Lord of the Rings by Tolkein.
As for quotes, there are two that have stuck with me for at least twenty years: ‘Some people swallow the universe like a pill; they travel on through the world, like smiling images pushed from behind’ – Robert Louis Stevenson.
‘It ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them’ – Niccolo Machiavelli
L.SOJINI: Lastly, what words of encouragement would you give to entrepreneurs out there?
MIKE STOPFORTH: At the very least, try. This incredible country of ours rises and falls on our ability to create and foster small businesses.
Kyle Fraser
Call him Klyie, Kylo or call him by any other name… whatever the name, Kyle Fraser ran PlusNarrative the year I sent him an email asking to do the interview you’re about to read now, where he said in one of his past-lives, he used to work at a music store.
L.SOJINI: Tell us about yourself: Where you from, what you do [and everything!]
KYLE FRASER: You can call me Kylie or Kylo, or you can call me another excitable marketer calling himself a storyteller, I’m anything but a BS’er and I’m really OK with you calling me Kylie.
Born near the shores of the Southern African East Coast, I started talking before I could crawl. I haven’t stopped talking since then – as far as my friends, family and colleagues are concerned.
Every day, I find solace in music and meditation for 10 minutes to an hour, I wouldn’t exist without this.
I am a sum of all of the people who have contributed to me, I’m very grateful for that so please don’t leave this out of the article…
Sincerely, I am an activist for building the people who I care for, even when they aren’t expecting it.
I have an addiction to real coffee that I’m very comfortable with. Is that cliched in the agency world? In the specialty coffee world (yes, another sliver of the multi-verse to get your head around) it’s recognized as a legitimate benefit that completes the lives of many.
Despite the experience I have as a presenter for brands, pitches and events, I’m certain that I am an introvert, much prefer smaller groups of close-friends and my favorite word? ‘Pernickety’.
L.SOJINI: How did you get into marketing? And what made you start PlusNarrative?
KYLE FRASER: In early 2012, during my tenure as a hands-on marketing director/general manager for Colombo Coffee & Tea, I started consulting on marketing strategy for a few Durban-based brands.
At the time, my team at The Factory Cafe and Colombo Coffee & Tea had developed an awesome engagement rate on social media communities – so my social media experience was under demand.
I started collaborating with Andy who had a great Instagram community and we needed an outlet for the marketing strategy work I was doing as well as a team to handle social media community management for our client list, so the agency organically formed from there. (Andy subsequently left the agency earlier this year).
We have worked with incredible brands, from MRP Fashion and Mercedes-Benz to new and innovative SA brands like Propertuity.
L.SOJINI: What does a digital marketing agency do exactly?
KYLE FRASER: For a long time, I was hesitant to call PlusNarrative an agency because we’re so much more than an advertising business. We do have ‘agency’ for the brands we represent online, because we research, strategize, create, build, engage and report on their behalf.
Digital marketing is this crazy holistic term for online marketing, community management, inbound marketing and outbound marketing. It often involves aspects of development too. We specialize in content marketing, social media community engagement and development (websites, application development etc).
You could say digital marketing agencies are the ‘new’ traditional agency in some cases. In other ways, they are substantially different – because big business has been afraid of digital in the past, smaller business has crafted a niche for digital savvy brands to deliver in a different process.
L.SOJINI: What made you choose digital marketing over traditional marketing?
KYLE FRASER: It’s the format of my generation I suppose. I believe in the power of connection, co-creation and communities. Digital inter-connectivity has made the world a lot smaller (yet bigger?).
When I started to explore inbound marketing, online influencer marketing and social media marketing (especially), it was very much a budget-related decision. We could achieve huge results on a low budget and actually interpret them with accuracy. The budgets we work with have changed, but the principles remain.
L.SOJINI: PlusNarrative almost has two-thousand Twitter followers. How important is this stat for a digital marketing agency?
KYLE FRASER: ‘Vanity metrics’ seem to be very important to most brands, because it shows potential prospects and followers that you have influence and a presence.
Our team would rather have 100 passionate followers on our Twitter account, engaging and supporting our efforts than 10,000 followers who don’t engage.
We’re working on 10,000 relevant community members across networks, but as usual we want to create for them and help them achieve their goals, perhaps even solve their problems.
L.SOJINI: What would be your advice to someone who wants to start a digital marketing agency?
KYLE FRASER: Start now. Keep it small, focus on value-adding to the brands you love and scale later.
L.SOJINI: Let’s talk about success a little. What words of advice have you received that you will always cherish?
KYLE FRASER: ‘It is far better to create communities of trust than networks of expertise’
‘Get started’
‘When we co-create, we care – when we care, we share’
L.SOJINI: How do you get yourself out of a rut? And what are some of the reasons why people always find themselves in a rut?
KYLE FRASER: Presentation [sic] is better than cure, so I take a different route whenever possible. If I do end up in a rut of the same monotony day-in, day-out, I try to zoom-out of my rutted perspective and focus on ‘why’ I am alive. My purpose.
L.SOJINI: What is your favourite quote and why?
KYLE FRASER: ‘Be yourself; everyone else is already taken’ ― Oscar Wilde.
L.SOJINI: Favourite music?
KYLE FRASER: Hard to answer. Right now I am listening to a soundtrack composed by Ludivico Einuadi. I love music that makes me think, but I also love music that shuts me down. Everything from Indie, Pop and Electronica to Blues, Classical masters and straight-up rock ’n roll. In my one of my past-lives I worked at a music store.
L.SOJINI: Finish this: to be successful…
KYLE FRASER: Find a purpose, enable others to find that purpose and live it, passionately, with them.
Liffey Speller
The following interview was conducted in October 2015. Looking at the email agreeing to the interview, Liffey Speller wrote ‘Thank you so much for getting in touch. That sounds fantastic’. It was on a Tuesday when I sent the email, and she responded the following day, sayonh she would ‘complete the questions over the weekend and get them back to you asap’.
I like that response: you always want people to be quick in response.
Speller is an artist. I heard learned about her work and paintings from the Unsung Artists website. Besides being artist, by the time we did the interview, I think she was completing her teaching studies. So since it’s about seven years we spoke, I’m sure she’s an educator now.
I’m also sure she’s exhibited her works in the places she dreamed of – (‘I think exhibiting in one of the art capitals such as New York or Paris would be incredible. Or maybe London, it would be nice to show work in my home country’.)
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L.SOJINI: Who influences you?
LIFFEY SPELLER: The work of other artists is a major influence. If I need some inspiration I just need to look at some artwork to see what other artists are doing to get the spark back.
L.SOJINI: Do you prefer single pieces or series?
LIFFEY SPELLER: It really depends on what I’m making. I would say I prefer stand-alone pieces that work in harmony with other artworks without being too ‘matchy-matchy’. I don’t like feeling like I’ve made the same thing twice but am slowly venturing into making some series of works as I’m developing a concept, style or technique.
L.SOJINI: ‘Fountain of Neptune’ is one of your art pieces. How did you make that?
LIFFEY SPELLER: That’s an interesting artwork to have chosen. I painted that during a period of persistent artist’s block. I’d had some canvas paper tucked away and had never used it so I thought I would paint something figurative for a bit of a change and experiment with a new surface.
The image is from a trip to Italy I took in 2011 to see the Venice Biennale which was a really inspiring, so ‘Fountains’ harks back to that time in an attempt to bring those memories back to get through the block.
It’s acrylic on canvas paper. I laid out a rough sketch of the image first in a light brown paint and then built up the layers from there. I like working in acrylics for works like this as you can build up layers quickly because of their fast drying time.
It’s a fairly neutral palette and not a range of colours I’m particularly used to painting in so trying to build up a sense of depth rather than it being a flat beige image was quite challenging.
L.SOJINI: Does art have to be beautiful or pretty?
LIFFEY SPELLER: Personally I would say no but I think it’s very subjective. I love a beautiful artwork but at the same time really appreciate that for conceptual artworks (as well as some contemporary works) process trumps final form. These are the kind of works I like engaging with, rather than admiring something pretty. I’d like to think I make work that sits nicely between the two.
L.SOJINI: Do you have one particular message you wanna spread or your messages vary?
LIFFEY SPELLER: It’s taken a while for me to consolidate my practice, it took a few years of experimentation after varsity to hone in on what I was trying to say.
At the moment I can tell you I have two distinctly different bodies of work. I know that’s sometimes frowned upon but sometimes I just need a change of scenery for my hands and brain.
Most of my work explores materiality as its main focus and looks at the ideas of transience, fragility and temporality. I like to play with unpredictable materials such a salt water and ink as the final result, once the salt begins to crystalise and break down the pigment of the ink, can only be controlled to a certain point, then fate takes over.
The other body is far less serious and features a mix of works made from combining embroidery and painting. There’s not really an overarching theme; they’re artworks I make that have no pressure behind them, if that makes any sense. I’d like to think that they’re something someone could look at and have their day made a little bit brighter.
L.SOJINI: Where can people see some of your pieces?
LIFFEY SPELLER: My work is up on a variety of websites: Tumblr and Facebook being the most prominent of them. I have a dedicated website as well, liffeyspeller.com, where the works are categorized for easier browsing.
My work can also be seen (and purchased) on the Unsung Art and StateoftheArt websites.
Other than that most of my works are scattered around my house waiting for the opportunity to be shown somewhere. I don’t currently have any work up in physical spaces but am hoping to change that in 2016.
L.SOJINI: What do you do to market/sell your work?
LIFFEY SPELLER: I rely heavily on social media for marketing. Most of my marketing I do myself via my artist’s Facebook page but I also sell work through two galleries, Unsung Art and StateoftheArt, almost exclusively online.
I do sell some work by myself, generally my mixed media pieces, as it’s so hard to photograph them to give an accurate picture of what the work looks like. A photo of salt crystals and what they actually look like are two very different experiences but again that’s generally done via social media.
The internet is an amazing tool for an entrepreneur who’s too shy to put themselves out there, particularly at the beginning of a career and that’s the space I’m currently in. It’s also an incredibly cost effective way to promote your practice.
L.SOJINI: What else do you do besides art?
LIFFEY SPELLER: Not much else! The mantra ‘eat, sleep and breathe it’ comes to mind. If I’m not making it I’m looking at it and if I’m not looking at it I’m researching it. Some would call it obsessive but I like to think of it as being passionate.
I’m currently finishing a postgrad certificate in teaching which has been amazing so am looking to start teaching alongside my artmaking.
I also have a bag line called Graymalkins but I’ve been so busy this year (and couldn’t work out a way to get my sewing machine to Cape Town safely) that that’s fallen to the wayside. That’s something I will definitely be expanding on and developing next year as making the bags is something I really enjoy.
L.SOJINI: Is there any artwork of yours you are most proud of? Why?
LIFFEY SPELLER: The one that comes to mind was a piece I made in 2010 whilst I was still studying. I have a secret desire to be an installation artist and decided to make a site-specific installation work then turn it into a video, two mediums I had never worked in before.
My work at the time was looking at human atrocities and man’s violence to man, cheerful stuff, and this piece was in reference to Flanders Fields.
I think I was most proud of it because I put so much time into it. I made hundreds of handmade poppies to install on a beach and have waves repetitively wash over them.
I found a really empty beach near to Boulders Beach and set up this expanse of poppies and began to film. About 15 minutes in a family of German tourists arrived to take a walk on the beach and were very confused to be picking their way through a field of flowers poking out of the sand with a person covered in paint pointing a video camera at them.
The process of making it, the experience on the day and the responses to the final product definitely make it my most memorable artwork. It’s also one of the artworks my brother helped me with, we set up and filmed the work together, so that makes it particularly special to me.
L.SOJINI: How do you know when a work is finished?
LIFFEY SPELLER: To be honest I don’t think any of my works are ever finished but to try to give you an answer it’s when I do something to a piece and realise immediately it was a mistake and hurry to wipe it off before it leaves a mark, then it’s a sign to step away.
L.SOJINI: What is your most important tool? Is there something you can’t live without in your studio?
I couldn’t tell you which company makes it but I use these very cheap 5cm wide brushes all the time. They have incredibly soft bristles so are great for manipulating ink without leaving any brush marks.
L.SOJINI: Where are you based?
LIFFEY SPELLER: I’m based in Cape Town and am currently living in Gardens, working out of my flat.
L.SOJINI: Which places have you exhibited before?
LIFFEY SPELLER: I’ve exhibited in a few group shows in Johannesburg and Cape Town and have been featured in some online exhibitions as well.
L.SOJINI: Where do you still wanna exhibit?
LIFFEY SPELLER: Anywhere and everywhere – it doesn’t hurt to dream big. I would like to exhibit a lot more here in South Africa but I think exhibiting in one of the art capitals such as New York or Paris would be incredible. Or maybe London, it would be nice to show work in my home country.
L.SOJINI: How did you get into art?
LIFFEY SPELLER: According to my Mum I picked up a brush before I could talk and never put it down. I think that’s an exaggeration but it’s a good story.
It was never a conscious decision to ‘become and artist’, it’s just something I’ve always done so continuing that into my professional career was a natural progression.
My earliest memories are of drawing so I guess that should’ve been a sign of things to come.
L.SOJINI: What do you enjoy doing most?
LIFFEY SPELLER: Making art is the first thing that comes to mind. I also love reading when I get the time and baking when I get access to an oven.
I like my mind and hands to be constantly busy so I’ll be doing research whilst binge watching series whilst waiting for priming on a canvas to dry.
I’ve also recently taken up yoga which I’m really enjoying and can’t wait to get back into sewing.
L.SOJINI: What memorable responses have you had about your work?
LIFFEY SPELLER: I’ve had probably two particularly memorable responses.
The first was at my grad show and a friend of mine told me that my show made her cry. I’m obviously not happy about making her cry but to know that a collection of my work moved someone emotionally was an incredible feeling.
The second happened just the other day. I received a message on Facebook from someone saying how my work resonates with her. Having someone, particularly someone I don’t know, who has no personal ties to me, say something like that, made me really emotional and fuels the fire to want to make more. I’m going to print out her message and look at it on bad days.
L.SOJINI: What do you dislike most about the art world?
LIFFEY SPELLER: I find mingling and small talk very difficult so that aspect of the art world is a challenge to me. Making myself a visible figure and being ‘in the scene’ is really important but that’s something I’m currently struggling with.
Also the fact that art supplies are expensive. That’s something I and my bank account don’t like at all.
L.SOJINI: Favourite book?
LIFFEY SPELLER: I love epic fantasy so I’ll pick a series rather than a book. The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan has had a major impact on me so I would have to go with that.
L.SOJINI: Favourite quote?
LIFFEY SPELLER: There’s the poem by Erin Hanson that says, ‘There is freedom waiting for you, On the breezes of the sky, And you ask “What if I fall?” Oh but my darling, What if you fly?’, which I like as a little reminder to not be so afraid, so probably that one. There are many more scribbled in notebooks but I think that one is most apt at the moment for me.
L.SOJINI: Favourite music?
LIFFEY SPELLER: My taste in music changes a lot but I generally enjoy a bit of everything other than R&B. I’m really enjoying indie, folk and bluegrass at the moment.
L.SOJINI: Finish this: To be a successful artist/businessperson...
LIFFEY SPELLER: Don’t give up, even if you don’t get immediate recognition or success. Be the tortoise not the hare; slow and steady always wins the race in the end.
L.SOJINI: What research do you do?
LIFFEY SPELLER: I spend a lot of time looking at other artists’ work, seeing how they’ve used materials or addressed a concept. I also like researching the origin of words, traditions and objects to spark something. Something in the etymology can catch my interest and lead to really interesting and unexpected things.
I also keep an online visual diary of artworks as I like to be able to refer back and look for themes with all the pictures together in one place.
L.SOJINI: Name three artists you’d like to be compared to.
LIFFEY SPELLER: That’s a really difficult question. I don’t think I’m anywhere close yet but these are the three I aspire to: Cornelia Parker, because of how she manipulates materials (she’s also my favourite artist so to be mentioned in the same sentence as her would be an honour).
Cai Guo-Qiang, for his conceptual prowess and ability to translate that into stunning works of art.
And Louise Bourgeois, for being gutsy and fearless with her art.
Jay Samit
American entrepreneur – ‘serial entrepreneur’ in his own words – Jay Samit had just released his new book Disrupt Yourself, when I sent him an email asking for this interview.
He was good enough to send me his responses, explaining that the slight delay he had responding to my questions was because he was in Hong Kong at the time.
I think I remember what my beliefs were at the time when we did this interview. I used to believe in entrepreneurship, but not so much these days, but that’s besides the question.
We talked entrepreneurship with Jay, but there was another big story happening in the world then: America was in the process of choosing Barrack Obama’s successor. Either they could Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton.
I’m not big on politics, but I asked Jay: ‘Who do you think will win the elections?’
Since he had worked with Bill Clinton, Jay said that although the American elections were hard to predict, he thought Hillary would win, but Donald Trump went on to disrupt American politics.
L.SOJINI: Thanks Jay for talking to us. If you can tell us about yourself please.
JAY SAMIT: I am a serial entrepreneur who has had the good fortune to start and be apart of new companies that have changed the world: Ebay, Facebook, ooVoo and LinkedIn are used by billions daily.
What I have learned in the process is that anyone can change the world if they first change how they see themselves and their internal limitations.
We are all just one click away from billions of consumers. Anyone, from any land, can now become a self-made billionaire.
L.SOJINI: You have a book out – in the States – and now it's gonna be published in South Africa. Tell us about the book, too. And why you chose to write that book.
JAY SAMIT: I wrote Disrupt Yourself because I realized that our educational system teaches students to conform and get a job. Yet, all of the world's innovation comes from people breaking that mold. No one ever founded a company or a nation by following in the footsteps of others.
I wanted to show readers the process for disrupting industries and launching global innovations.
L.SOJINI: Sometimes when you're an entrepreneur you feel like you have to have a lot of money (for marketing), fancy clothes, cars and whatnot. Is there a way an entrepreneur can start from scratch with no money and everything?
JAY SAMIT: It is easier now to launch a business as an entrepreneur than any time in history. We are all interconnected. An entrepreneur can solve a problem locally or globally.
You don’t need the vast amount of capital once required and there is plenty of invest money available if you understand how to access it. I have raised hundreds of millions of dollars for startups (including for students of mine in their twenties).
Disrupt Yourself teaches where to look and how to attract capital. Africa is a huge continent ripe for business disruption and has many advantages over Western nations: low-cost labor, a culture of entrepreneurship, and government support.
L.SOJINI: On entrepreneurship. Do we have people who ‘should’ be entrepreneurs out there but who are not – or is it a matter of trying to convince happily-employed individuals to ditch their jobs?
JAY SAMIT: The biggest challenge to becoming an entrepreneur is fear of failure, fear of what others will think. Too many people give up on their dreams listening to people that gave up on theirs.
You don’t have to know all the answers to launch a business. You just need two things: an idea and persistence. Everything else can be hired.
L.SOJINI: Disrupt Yourself is the title of your book. Do I get it right that when you’re an entrepreneur and your usual ways or of working are not producing the results you want, you should, in your own words, ‘disrupt yourself’?
JAY SAMIT: Self-disruption is akin to plastic surgery but you are the one holding the scalpel. The idea is to change how you perceive your limitations. Too many parents and teachers told you what you couldn’t do, when in fact you can do anything you put your mind to achieving. We are limitless in our potential.
My book is about learning how to channel your energies for the best possible outcome.
L.SOJINI: How, then, can an entrepreneur who wants to disrupt his normal or usual ways do that? A few examples, if possible.
JAY SAMIT: A simple way to start the ‘disrupt yourself’ process is to look at the problems in your life. Every problem is really an opportunity in disguise. All that an entrepreneur does is solve problems for others. The bigger (more universal) the problem, the greater wealth you will create.
Start by listing three problems in your life every day for a month. In the beginning it is easy, but as the month progresses you will have to look harder at what is a problem and what can be changed. By the end of the month you have 30 business opportunities. Pick the one you are most passionate about solving.
Remember, if you think you can or you think you can’t, you are right.
L.SOJINI: Let’s talk about communication methods. What method do you prefer in terms of results? And why do you recommend this method?
JAY SAMIT: Social media is the best way to reach consumers, business partners, and investors globally. Find a mentor on LinkedIn. Build a base of investor/users on Indiegogo, Kickstarter, Jumpstart Africa, or Thundafund.
Use Twitter and Facebook to build brand awareness and customers.
L.SOJINI: You have a whole lot of followers @jaysamit. How did you get there? And how important is this?
JAY SAMIT: You build a social media following by providing content that is useful to people. I started tweeting about entrepreneurship many years ago. By combining knowledge, humor, and motivation, I have built an active community of over 100,000 followers from 140 nations. I am humbled by the range and intensity of my following. I enjoy being a part of the international community of entrepreneurs.
L.SOJINI: Your book, as mentioned previously, is also published here in South Africa. Your thoughts on this?
JAY SAMIT: I am so honored that my book is being embraced around the globe. It is now available in five languages (the most recent Vietnamese).
I think young people in Africa are more aware of the global markets available to them then their parents or grandparents generation. We are all connected.
I look forward to visiting Africa again in 2016 to meet with readers and entrepreneurs.
L.SOJINI: Anyone you know in the country?
JAY SAMIT: One of my closest friends, Ralph Simon, started a music label in South Africa when he was in his twenties and today is one of the most respected men globally in the music and mobile industries. I even talk about his disruption in the book: ring tones. At a time when no one was buying digital music, Ralph created a billion dollar market for music ring tones.
And another friend, Akon, made more money from ring tones than selling albums. In fact, Akon holds the world record for selling the most ring tones.
L.SOJINI: Tell us about the U.S. Is there anything that African entrepreneurs would be surprised to know about American entrepreneurs?
JAY SAMIT: I think that American entrepreneurs have two advantages. First, the amount of risk capital invested in startups by venture capital is nearing $40 billion a year. This gives a great number of entrepreneurs the chance to try.
Second, Americans don’t have a fear of failure. We understand that most businesses won’t make it and that there is no shame in trying something new.
Failing is learning what doesn’t work. Failure is quitting.
L.SOJINI: When should we expect your next book? And what are you gonna be talking about?
JAY SAMIT: I just published this book so I haven’t started on the next. My goal for the next book is to share the stories from my readers about their successes and how they applied the knowledge in Disrupt Yourself to their own businesses.
I think reading how other readers achieved their goals will be a very powerful book.
L.SOJINI: How does one’s book become a bestseller?
JAY SAMIT: It takes a lot of energy to drive a book to bestseller status. You hope that all of your speaking, social media, and the quality of your writing propels people to tell their friends about it. I am humbled by the fantastic reviews on Amazon and other sites.
L.SOJINI: Favourite entrepreneur? Why?
JAY SAMIT: I really admire Sir Richard Branson and regret turning down the opportunity to work for him. He has launched dozens of companies and built eight that are worth more than a billion dollars.
He lives life fully and inspires those around him to do the same.
L. SOJINI: Favourite quote?
JAY SAMIT: ‘My brain is the key that sets me free’ – Harry Houdini.
I paid my way through college as a magician and it is still my favorite hobby.
Harry was a poor boy who changed the world of entertainment. He traveled the globe and performed for kings – all because of his will power and intellect.
L.SOJINI: Music you listen to while working?
JAY SAMIT: My musical tastes are classic rock: Beatles, Beach Boys, Eagles, Rolling Stones and Elton John.
The thrill of my life was getting to disrupt the music industry and meet all of my childhood idols.
L.SOJINI: Who do you think will be the next American president?
JAY SAMIT: It is tough to predict the next American president. President Bill Clinton believed in me and changed my life. I think his wife has a great chance of winning.
L.SOJINI: Finish this: To be successful…
JAY SAMIT: To be successful you must believe in yourself.
Mark Galeotti
Fresh from covering the National Arts Festival in 2019, I talked to Mark Galeotti, an honorary professor at UCL School of Slavonic & East European Studies and a senior associate Fellow at the Royal United Services Institute.
Galeotti was going to attend the Edinburgh International Book Festival, I guess in conjuction with the publication of his new book, We Need to Talk About Putin.
I sent him an email and we had this discussion you’re about to read. Russia wasn’t in the news like it is now in 2022 since it invaded Ukraine. I doubt I was interested in Russia or Putin; I was just happy to talk with another author.
What I love about this interview is that while Galeotti is critical of Russia, he still writes about it with love and passion. But I love it more because it reads like a spy or thriller essay. There’s fear in its sentences, but Galeotti is great ‘story-teller’. He’s a writer who can write anywhere, a writer who has no writing rituals, unless you count drinking tea as a writing ritual. On a given day, his favourite book is Pride & Prejudice, and ony any other given day, Red Harvest becomes his other favourite book.
On the surface, the following interview looks long but as you read through Galeotti’s expressive prose, when you get to the end quicker than you expected, you’ll be left thinking: ‘Wait, what – is this the end? No ways! I need more!’ (I think this interview is similar, if not in it’s nature, with the one I did with Johann van Loggerenberg).
L.SOJINI: You write a lot about Russia. What fascinates you about Russia?
MARK GALEOTTI: Where to start? By training, I’m an historian, but by inclination I’m a story-teller, and Russia has all the best stories. The blood is especially crimson, the heroism especially bright, the treacheries especially dark.
Why does it fascinate me so? It simply does, for as long as I can remember.
L.SOJINI: The image we have of Russia is that of dictators, spies and lack of democracy. How true is this?
MARK GALEOTTI: It’s the truth but by no means the whole truth. There is also the Russia that is a land of committed human rights activists and fearless investigative journalists; the Russia of hipster cafes and gleaming new trains; of medieval re-enactors and futurist architects; and of perfectly ordinary, decent human beings doing their 9-5, swinging past the shops on the way home and then spending an evening helping their kid with the homework and watching some TV.
For me, Vladimir Putin’s state, with its geopolitical adventurism, its foreign wars and domestic repressions, is a transitional one (though nonetheless dangerous for that), as Russia works its way through the initial trauma of the end of empire and superpower status. But the real Russia, everyday Russia, is increasingly Western in form and values.
L.SOJINI: What would people be surprised to learn about Russia?
MARK GALEOTTI: Precisely that Russia isn’t some terrifying ‘other’. When I was a professor at New York University, I would bring graduate students over to Moscow for a ten-day research visit. I’d always ask them what they expected to find, and they duly served up the usual tropes of 1970s spy moves, of a drab, grey city full of drab, grey people, of state vigilance and public reticence, backward and cowed. And then they were amazed to find a city that was vibrant and lively, even more 24/7 than New York, full of people who could just as easily have been sitting at a Starbucks in Manhattan.
That’s the surprise, that while it retains a distinctiveness – just as Italy and Britain, the USA and the Czech Republic all have their quirks and characteristics – it can at the same time be Us instead of Them (whoever Them may be).
L.SOJINI: Doesn’t it scare you to write about Russia?
MARK GALEOTTI: No; honestly, my greatest fear is always whether I’ll get my visa renewed and be able to return to this extraordinary country.
Of course, the kinds of people I write about – spooks and gangsters, dirty oligarchs and corrupt officials – mean that sometimes I have to be careful who I meet and where, but in the main this is no more dangerous than researching the same kinds of people in, say, Britain, and a great deal safer than many other countries.
L.SOJINI: Tell me more about your involvement with this year's Edinburgh International Book Festival.
MARK GALEOTTI: This is going to be an interesting experience for me, as I am new to the world of literary festivals. Scholarly monographs don’t get you invited to such events, alas. The invitation to go and speak came as a welcome surprise to me, and so I’m just going to go along, talk about me and my work – and let’s be honest, isn’t that what most of us enjoy doing? – and just enjoy the environment.
L.SOJINI: What’s next for you after the festival?
MARK GALEOTTI: I’ve got various other literary festivals at which I’ll be speaking, such as at Cheltenham and Bridport.
Having been living abroad for eleven and a half years – in New York, Moscow, Prague and Florence – I’m enjoying having relocated back to London and reconnecting with the British academic, literary and political scenes.
Meanwhile, though, I have a bunch of other projects on the go: a short history of Russia, a book about how war has become more about memes, hacks and bribes than shooting, and my major project, which will take at least a couple more years, on the Russian security and intelligence services and how they and their mindset is coming to shape their country.
L.SOJINI: Do you have any writing rituals?
MARK GALEOTTI: I don’t (that makes me feel as if somehow I’m missing out). The closest I have is that my writing is essentially fuelled by tea…
L.SOJINI: What is your writing process?
MARK GALEOTTI: I’m very lucky in that I can write at home or in an airport, in the morning or in the evening, for a half hour or the best part of a day, straight.
The truth of the matter is that I enjoy writing as an activity, although that doesn’t mean there aren’t some projects that excite me less and some days that when inspiration remains stubbornly out of reach.
I’m a great believer in getting words down, and accepting that they may well be edited heavily, even wiped away, rather than demanding that every first draft is perfect.
But I also think that when the muse really isn’t delivering, recognise and respect that. Go and do something physical, take a dog for a walk, watch a sitcom, clean the bath – just do something else and circle back later, and hope to catch the muse by surprise.
L.SOJINI: Favourite book? Why?
MARK GALEOTTI: Impossible. My constellations of favourite books wheel and shift over the years, so it’s always an artificial task to pick just one. But you asked, so let me say that at this hour of this day, it would probably be Jane Austin’s Pride and Prejudice, for the sly irony encoded within what otherwise looks like over-mannered prose, and for the way she takes what is, really, a ghastly situation, as women are forced to find husbands or accept a life of dependant penury, and find not just humour but also optimism in it.
But ask me tomorrow, and it may well be Dashiell Hammett’s Red Harvest for the extraordinarily compact yet evocative prose that even manages to out-Hemingway Hemingway in my opinion.
L.SOJINI: Favourite quote? Why?
MARK GALEOTTI: ‘It has been willed, where what is willed will be’, from Dante’s Inferno. It’s just such a wonderfully pompous yet powerful declaration. Alas, I very rarely get to use it myself…
L.SOJINI: Favourite album? Why?
MARK GALEOTTI: I’m not that musical, to be honest: it’s background for a spell in the gym or a long walk more than anything else.
I’m also pretty eclectic in my tastes. Don’t believe me? The current albums topping the play rates on my phone are Gogol Bordello’s Gypsy Punks, Gilbert & Sullivan’s Pirates of Penzance, The Very Best of the Red Army Choir and Billy Bragg and Wilco’s Mermaid Avenue, Vol. II…
Chris Jordan
Chris Jordan holds a BSc in Computer Science and BComm (Hons) in Informatics. Has two decades in the media industry. Has presented for 94.7 (formerly Highveld Stereo, where he interviewed luminaries such as Ciara and Adam Lambert), is an author and runs radio training. (He trained radio professionals at Boston Media House for the past ten years).
He decries how radio stations chops and changes presenters. In one article, he says that presenters should be willing to spend decades at their stations, not be here today and gone tomorrow.
His radio career started at Tuks FM, the radio station of the the University of Pretoria. It was in his third year, studying for his degree, that he joined Tuks FM.
He loves the audio format and loves music.
L.SOJINI: ‘If you want exposure, expose yourself’, you say in your audio book. Please expand on that.
CHRIS JORDAN: We are in essence lucky as media practitioners, living in an era where social mediums reign in supremacy. Content creation is no longer a skill set that only media professionals can claim, but because we have stay at home moms who are churning out trendsetting podcasts, and ‘run of the mill’ families influencing as stars on YouTube.
So as content creators ourselves, we have no excuse to attempt to be equal or better than the world that has dominated us in our space. Create a content calendar.
You don’t have to belong to a station to create a brand. Stick to the calendar and vary from vlogging, podcasting, writing blog pieces, and posting with purpose on social mediums. You can build an active resume which you can use to apply for an on-air role.
L.SOJINI: What do you love most about radio? But of course, you have over eighteen years in the industry. You’ve created all sorts of content besides radio. So, maybe the bigger question is: what is it about radio that you’re still in love with it after all these years?
CHRIS JORDAN: I love the connection. When you do great radio, the listeners want to speak with. It creates a small club of people that all share a common interest – radio, and I guess, you.
This is a real time medium. And it feeds my ego in a healthy way. By that I mean, if you are an entertainer, audience appeal is what drives you to be better. That connection to a job well done, I love it.
L.SOJINI: Listening to the first parts of your audiobook, you give lessons to aspirant radio presenters. Why is it important for newbie presenters to have the information and insight you’ve learned over the years?
CHRIS JORDAN: Radio is basically about two things, a skill set that qualifies you as a professional, and an x-factor. A larger than life personality.
I struggled figuring radio out, in terms of the semantics. I don’t regret that time at all, but I feel that aspiring talent can move forward more effectively if they know what and how to build their skill sets first.
Of course there are many lessons you can give to aspirant radio presenters. You’ve written and talked about these. But, say I was an aspirant radio presenter myself, what one lesson would you say I must prioritize?
Understanding your listener. If you understand your target demographic, you can service them better – as opposed to creating ‘selfish’ radio where you force feed content, ideas and conversations down a listener’s throat.
CHRIS JORDAN: What makes a bankable broadcaster?
CHRIS JORDAN: If I have to simplify the phrase, it refers to a broadcaster who is excelling at executing their craft. I can ‘bank’ on great radio when I tune in to their shows.
L.SOJINI: I ask the question before this because you have an article titled ‘The Top 5 Bankable Broadcasters 2021’. The list has MacG, Anele Mdoda and Dan Corder, just to mention three. Looking at Anele Mdoda and Mac G, I’d equate being bankable with being controversial. But I guess my bigger question is: are these guys making the most money or are they gaining the most attention?
CHRIS JORDAN: It’s a bit of both, but not applied to the same degree. For example Dan, he was brought into 5FM as a new business strategy, with what I’m guessing is a reasonable salary. Salaries are dependent on clout, and experience.
MacG is creating his own revenue with the podcast channel being his base. Salaries are tricky. They are actually based on how much a station has to pay to get you to join their team, or based on your last reference of disposable income.
Just because you are the most popular jock on air, doesn’t necessarily mean you are earning the most. I was offered R2K more than job at UNISA when I got my first commercial gig. And that’s a manager that is cutting costs, but has a bigger carrot to dangle, which for me was weekday radio on a big brand station.
L.SOJINI: How important are lists like these? You have been writing them for years. What do they show you about the changes in the radio landscape?
CHRIS JORDAN: I suppose if you had to place them in larger context, suppose a ‘Top 30 Bankable Broadcasters’, our choices would start running thin.
We are in an era of mediocrity which is a shame. I don’t like that we have to ‘reward’ jocks for doing a great job in the commercial sector. We all have to be doing great, as these are coveted positions, and to get there, you anyway had to be the best of the best of some sector as you worked through community or retail slots.
I like the list because it often includes star quality presenters that aren’t ‘click bait’, so are doing great work, but aren’t always in articles or on people’s lips because of their outside radio brand.
L.SOJINI: You think a lot about the media, and of course about your life. And you write about it a lot, and create other forms of content like audio. My question is: what content have you created? What have you written? I’m sure there are many drafts on your hard drive or hard drives.
CHRIS JORDAN: I like to think that I am building myself as a part of the radio intelligence/media intelligence sector. Where innovation is now what inspires me, and drives the want to be the change we see in our craft. So, credibility came a lot with the academic publications, and making sure that I can practice what I preach.
In that, not only tangible aspects of our craft, podcasting etc but also the corporate aspects of change within sales, marketing, management, journalism, and so on.
I also wanted to make sure I test myself outside my sector, so having worked on TV, I wanted to now also claim some ownership on visual media by scripting, content development, directing and presenting my own products.
With innovation, I started the 1st Radio Mentorship in South Africa. I look to do firsts where I see an opportunity to. My textbook was the first written by a SA broadcaster, and a first SA radio-centric academic book published and accepted into the South African National Library.
Where I consult and train for community stations, I want station managers to entrust the development of their staff, stakeholders and station in my ability to deliver.
I am always doing something. I currently am writing two other books that are not related to media at all. As I said, first for myself, and firsts within their respective spaces.
L.SOJINI: As a child, what thoughts ran through your mind when you were listening to Bon Jovi and The Bangles? We’re talking music now.
CHRIS JORDAN: It was actually my sisters that listened to these artists, and as a kid and younger brother, I liked their music choices because one, they were cool, and two, we had fun listening to cool music.
The 80s were an obscure time for music and artists in general. I grew through an ‘emo’ phase where Tracy Chapman, Alanis Morrisette and the Cranberries held very special places in my heart.
But I am an R&B guy. Old School. At the golden era of R&B which was through the late 90s all the way to around 2012 or so.
Watching greats in concert like Mary J Blige, Deborah Cox, Ashanti, Janet Jackson, and Mariah Carey to name a few, has been literal hashtag life.
But so many-many more make my every day. Snoop Dogg, LL Cool J, Dr Dre, Next, Ruff Endz, Whitney Houston, Faith Evans, Eminem. I could carry on but I won’t out of courtesy to your readers.
L.SOJINI: As an adult now, what goes through your mind when you listen to the said artists?
CHRIS JORDAN: So again, in particular with the 80s, it was a great time periodically within pop culture, but really is about my first 10 years on this planet, and my beautiful, wonderful big fat Greek Family.
L.SOJINI: Besides media, who is Chris Jordan? I mean you’ve created audio content talking about love and music. Surely, you’re not all about radio and media.
CHRIS JORDAN: I think by now some of my answers might have covered the majority of what you’re asking here, but the rest is pretty simple. I’m a geek through and through. From comic books to gaming to sci-fi and B-rate horror movies from the 50s and 60s, I love immersing myself in these sub-cultures.
L.SOJINI: Are you inspired by American podcasts? Surely, we don’t have to mention them by name.
CHRIS JORDAN: Inspired I suppose is the wrong term. I respect, appreciate and enjoy great quality podcasts. I will admit that personally I like listening to Christian-based podcasts, and otherwise, I like to listen to narratives like my own, or podcasts that are gritty and real.
I’m very much over the ‘interview on every episode’ format. It lacks creativity and for me feels like a copout only because we are infinitely drowned in 2022 by these types of podcasts.
L.SOJINI: On your website, you say ‘I preach to media practitioners that I mentor and train, that they need to start narratives that no one has demanded, requested, or shown a direct need for – but rather pro-actively view the world around them, step in, and tell a story that they didn’t know they wanted’. How important is this?
CHRIS JORDAN: Everyone has a story they want to tell. And the aspiring and growing broadcaster has to be able to claim some kind of ownership and credibility within the dynamic media space to showcase the difference between themselves, and literally every other ‘non-media’ content creators.
L.SOJINI: But this should be a hard thing to do, or at least if you were pitching this to an editor, it would be a difficult ask.
CHRIS JORDAN: A good or great idea sells itself. There is always a need for many things in many different markets.
I just created a passion project Comic Book Karaoke which is a 12-episode webseries that didn’t cost me a cent to produce (because I did everything, as mentioned before from the editing, to the scripting, to the presenting and directing), and I have a full base product I am currently pitching because it was given two thumbs up by directed focus group community members.
All of it is hard work. But if you are truthful and honest with yourself and on how you crit the quality and relevance of what you produce, the merit is always there. At the very least, it adds to your growing resume.
L.SOJINI: What publications do you read the most?
CHRIS JORDAN: I have always been studious, and so throughout school, but especially while studying my BSc and my BComm, I read every page in every textbook – and vowed to never read again.
Everything I consume is in terms of publication, is in audio format. Audiobooks are a big thing for me.
I love self-help and non-fiction material. I like learning, so I like to enjoy material that has merit to growth in my own perspective, tolerance, intelligence and emotional quotient.
L.SOJINI: Do you like listen to radio most of the time?
CHRIS JORDAN: Right now when I do it’s to very specific shows like the Kaya FM breakfast, and middays on Gagasi FM. But because I train in so much, I listen to so many variant stations (I just open the app and randomly select any station in South Africa, and heighten my knowledge on what is happening in the landscape)
L.SOJINI: How important are radio awards?
CHRIS JORDAN: They are very important. Not the win, but the nomination. It puts the right feelers in the right direction towards your product.
Unfortunately, it is a guessing game otherwise if efforts are not recognized. That doesn’t mean you’ll have a job when you get back to that station, but it does certify you in one somewhere else should you need it.
L.SOJINI: What is your favourite book?
CHRIS JORDAN: The Color Purple.
L.SOJINI: Favourite quote?
CHRIS JORDAN: My own quotes. I have many.
‘It’s about a RIGHT to be happy’;
‘There is no glory without it being your own story. There is no resurrection without your own crucifixion’;
‘People will always have something to say. Tell them to shut it. This race I’m running has one contestant. Me’.
And many more.
L.SOJINI: Do you find it easy to listen to new music? While at it, what music do you find playing over and over again?
CHRIS JORDAN: Yes definitely. I think we all don’t like what is out of our comfort zone, so if it is not from an already well-known artist, and it is in a genre we aren’t familiar with, more likely than not, most people just don’t listen to it from their own accord.
For me. I have to force new music and stream the bi-monthly local and international billboard hits. Just to be able to add some claim in music policies and rotation.
L.SOJINI: Is there music you fell out of love with?
CHRIS JORDAN: Not really, no. Music defines the soundtrack to any particular part of my life. Even though I love old school R&B, my tastes vary from the Spice Girls to Ludacris.
L.SOJINI: Thank you for talking to me. We could talk forever, but that would be asking for a lot!
CHRIS JORDAN: Thanks for allowing me to share my story!
Belinda Mountain
Belinda Mountain is the co-owner and director of Black Mountain, a content agency. She began her career working in the UK’s book and publishing industry. Spending seven years there, she returned to SA but later moved to The Hague in the Netherlands.
Speaking to Bizcommunity in 2015, she said she loved ‘good books, good grammar’ and ‘good manners’.
Asked on what advice Mountain had for those who wanted to ‘crack into the industry’, she said, ‘If you want to be a good writer, you need to read and you need to practise writing – a lot. In order to write for businesses, you also need a fair bit of business acumen, so a marketing degree or business qualification can also be very handy’.
L.SOJINI: How do you describe yourself?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: As a South African. And also as a writer, mother, business owner, traveller and asker of questions.
L.SOJINI: You’ve been on Twitter since 2011. What’s the experience been like?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: Twitter has given me access to people and opinions that I would never have come across if I wasn’t on the app, so I see it as a way of educating myself and opening my eyes.
I like to follow clever people and learn from them; and then also funny people who make me laugh.
Over the past two years though, with all the tragic events happening around the world, it’s become a much heavier space to spend time in. I’ve found that it can really affect my mental health and mood, so I’ve had to be more vigilant about limiting my time on it.
L.SOJINI: You also have a website (belindamountain.co.za). Tell me about that. What is it all about?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: The website is a blog where I share my longer-form writing that I do just for me, pieces not published on external media sites or written for clients.
I used to have a parenting blog a few years back but as my kids started growing up I took that down and changed focus – but I still wanted a space to house my writing.
L.SOJINI: There’s a Peppernuts Holland picture you have on your website. The brand has the quotation ‘happiness is knowing there is cake in the oven’. Any comment on this?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: Yes, I’ve been going through a baking phase lately, which is an activity that I noticed has flourished during the pandemic. I read a book a few years ago called The Case for Working with Your Hands where the author Matthew Crawford highlights all the mental health benefits of doing activities that require you to actually use your hands.
There’s a mindfulness aspect to baking, because when you’re up to your elbows in flour, you’re very much focused on the task at hand.
L.SOJINI: As a copywriter, what do you think makes the best copy?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: I’m sure there are many academic definitions but for me good copywriting is about connecting strongly with your audience, whoever they may be. And that requires a deep understanding of people, knowing what motivates and moves them. Without this understanding of your audience, you can’t communicate in a way that resonates with them, nor inspire them to act.
L.SOJINI: What would you say is and isn’t copywriting?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: I do find the definitions a bit blurred. Most people that picture copywriters, probably think of those sexy one liners that agencies compose for big brands to use on billboards for example. But copywriting is broader than that, it can also be about writing copy for a healthcare brochure that will educate someone on why going for a mammogram is important – something that could ultimately save their life.
Ultimately, copywriting is about communicating a specific message and getting others to take action, whatever shape that may take.
L.SOJINI: How did you end up being a copywriter? And can you tell me more about your agency?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: I’ve always been fascinated by words and seriously considered journalism as a career, but my parents persuaded me to study a generalised business degree instead and then try to combine my love of writing with that.
After university I was drawn to book publishing which is where I began my career in London, working in the marketing and PR departments for some big publishers over there.
After moving back to South Africa just over ten years ago, I teamed up with a friend and we started our digital marketing and content agency Black Mountain.
Together with my partner Catherine Black, we service a wide range of retainer and project clients, from large corporates like Fedhealth, Sasfin, FNB and Investec to exciting start-ups and small businesses.
Catherine is very experienced in SEO and has previously written a book on social media, and I have a publishing and marketing background, so this combination helps inform our core offering.
L.SOJINI: Let’s move to something else. You describe yourself as a South African living in The Hague. I could ask how that came about, but what does that mean for your agency? In other words, do you offer services to clients in the Netherlands as well as SA?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: Most of our clients are South African based, but we have a handful of international ones and are busy building that up.
L.SOJINI: What copywriting or agency work are you proud to have worked on the most?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: This year we’ve been working with one of our global technology clients on some conceptual copywriting projects, where we’re playing more of a creative direction role than a pure copywriting one.
It’s been incredibly exciting and rewarding to be behind coming up with the entire campaign idea, and then seeing it being rolled out by their creative teams, and enthusiastically received.
L.SOJINI: How does one become a better copywriter?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN
Gosh, experience I suppose. I find that after many years of copywriting work, it becomes a bit easier to find that perfect word on the tip of your tongue.
Instead of spending hours trying to make a piece of writing better, sometimes the phrase comes to you in a flash, which is incredibly gratifying.
So yes, it’s certainly about experience but it’s also about prolific reading. I read everything. Books constantly but also the back of the cereal box, the bus stop adverts, even the signs on the back of public toilets (not always recommended;).
I also think excellent copywriters are good at asking the right questions. Because sometimes you have to ask the question that no one has thought of, in order to produce that perfect piece of copy.
L.SOJINI: Do you have any writing rituals – before or during the writing?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: Before I open my laptop I always wash my hands and clean my nails. I suppose it’s because I want my fingers typing on the keys to be in good shape so that they have a better chance of producing beautiful words.
I also can’t have any noise (and I have the noisiest husband!), so I have to shut myself behind a closed door or put ear plugs in.
And I have to have my hair tied up and away from my face, otherwise I can’t focus.
L.SOJINI: Do you skip ads? I’ll risk it and say maybe you skip because they’re badly written!
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: I don’t always skip them. Sometimes I’ll consider it market research, because there are great ideas out there and I’m always looking to learn from others.
L.SOJINI: Are you a music person? If so, what songs do you find yourself playing over and again?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: You know, I would call myself a musical person in that I can sing pretty well, but for some reason I’ve never devoted much time to developing my musical taste.
I listen to terribly uncool music and I like to sing out loud in shops, which embarrasses my 12-year-old terribly.
L.SOJINI: What is your favourite book?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: That’s like asking me for my favourite child! I have favourite writers: anything by Barbara Kingsolver who writes a lot about nature and people and how we engage with the world; Arundhati Roy’s God of Small Things is incredibly lyrical and made me want to become a writer; and then Damon Galgut is an astonishingly good South African writer.
L.SOJINI: Favourite quote?
BELINDA MOUNTAIN: Archbishop Desmond Tutu was a master of metaphor and he really knew the true power of words. I find this one of his very insightful and helpful:
‘If you want peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies.’
And then Mary Oliver is one of my favourite poets: ‘The most regretful people on earth are those who felt the call to creative work, who felt their own creative power restive and uprising, and gave it neither power nor time.’
I try to remember this each time imposter syndrome rears its head, or when I want to give up because something I’ve written is terrible. My hope is that if I keep on giving it my time, I’ll eventually produce work I’m proud of.
Gillian Rightford
Gillian Rightford calls herself the ‘AdTherapist’. The story behind that name is that after watching three bad television adverts, she was moved to do something about it: she created Adtherapy.
But she wasn’t always an ‘AdTherapist’. At one point she was a Group Managing Director at Lowe Bull.
The Call to Action podcast, which has previously interviewed Rightford, lists the following as some of the books she finds interesting: The Choice Factory (Richard Shotton); Drive (Daniel Pink); Madison Avenue Manslaughter (Michael Farmer); Delusions of Brandeur (Ryan Wallman); Thinking Fast and Slow (Daniel Kahneman); and Anatomy of Humbug (Paul Feldwick).
An interview article on her on Bizcommunity notes flyfishing, photography and family as her favourite things.
L.SOJINI: Let’s jump straight into it. What is an AdTherapist?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: An AdTherapist is someone who helps makes ads better by helping the people who are involved in the making of ads (marketers and agencies) work better together.
L.SOJINI: How did you become an AdTherapist?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: I was looking for something new to do and sat watching TV one night and watched three bad ads in a row and thought ‘Aha! That’s what I should do – help the smart people who sit on either side of the table in the communications process to understand each other better and improve their skills in this area so people like me don’t have to endure bad or mediocre advertising’.
L.SOJINI: I guess you’ll agree that an interview like this is therapeutic. At the same time it’s intrusive. But I guess you’ll also agree that it’s healthy in a way. Your comment?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: As long as the process seeks the truth, the intrusion is worth it.
L.SOJINI: Would I be right to say Sigmund Freud is one of your inspirations? Whichever way, who are some of the people you look up to?
I am interested in psychology but my greater interest is in marketing and advertising.
The psychology part comes into play when I try and improve a client-agency relationship or team dynamic – by exploring what’s in the way and asking a lot of questions, I uncover some interesting things.
If people need real therapy (which they often do), I suggest they see a real psychologist.
I look up to people who value creativity, who write and explore and are constantly curious about the marketing and advertising eco-system.
L.SOJINI: Would it be fair to say that being an AdTherapist is a unique, or even new, kind of position?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: As far as I know, I am the only AdTherapist. Probably because I made the name up.
L.SOJINI: What was it like to be on Twitter in 2009? What was trending then?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: 2009 – I can’t remember that far back! What was it like? It was chatty and friendly and supportive and funny. There were fewer (if any) trolls and less disinformation.
L.SOJINI: How is it like to be on Twitter in 2022? What’s changed and what’s stayed the same?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: Twitter is as good as you make it. The level of anger has increased but I think we’ve got better at dealing with it – discerning true anger from paid anger.
I am a fan of Lists – so if the noise on the timeline gets too much, I retreat into my Lists where I have more control.
I also use the muted word function, and have no hesitation about unfollowing people who annoy me.
I report ardent racists and have an excellent hit rate in getting them thrown off the platform.
L.SOJINI: Is Twitter a great advertising platform? Or, what is it good for?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: It’s been good for me from a profile building point of view, although when someone says they follow me on Twitter, I usually respond with ‘Oh dear’.
I have made wonderful professional friends and contacts on Twitter from all over the world.
I thankfully find it a supportive place and it’s been good for me from a business point of view.
L.SOJINI: The Gasp website described you playfully as an agony aunt, give me an example of a scenario where a client of yours wanted help from you.
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: The quote from Gasp’s podcast Call to Action is where one of my clients described me as a cross between an agony aunt and a freedom fighter. That particular client said that after a gruelling relationship intervention with a particularly abusive client.
Because I am independent and because I have no qualms calling out bad behaviour, I am able to ask questions and make statements that parties on either side of the relationship can’t do.
I listen to complaints and concerns and then I will blow things up where they are not working.
L.SOJINI: What makes a bad ad?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: So many things. Fundamentally, poor strategic choices, undifferentiated or indistinctive or just unrealistic and waffly claims, no clear understanding of what the ad wants from you, poor production values, when the ad doesn’t match the brand value or positioning, when an ad is just plain boring and lacks creativity, sometimes when an ad is too creative (creative for creative sake and doesn’t tap into an insight or have any relevance to the brand or consumer) and of course ads that are stereotyping or offensive.
L.SOJINI: On the Call To Action podcast, you say you say you started AdTherapy because you saw three bad television ads in a row. How bad were they?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: They were bad. My favourite was one for Mazda. It was for a SUV type van and it showed a man loading three unclothed shop-window female mannequins into the back. (Message? Spacious.)
Then he drove from A to B. When the e car stopped he turned round and the mannequins had – wait for it – nipple stands. I kid you not. (Message? Sexy? Exciting drive?).
Anyway what made it bad for me was that it was in the middle of Desperate Housewives. The vast majority of people watching would have been women. The target audience for the van could have been suburban soccer-moms, so it was a decent placement, but how in the name of Bill Bernbach did the collective communications team (client and agency) think nipple stands would resonate with the audience? It was a lad-joke, totally unsuited for the audience.
Place during the rugby or soccer, happy days. Of course I was outraged at the strategic daftness of it, but unbeknown to me, many women were deeply offended by the ad and they had to edit it. So then the ad was just Man Loading Mannequins Into Van And Driving Somewhere.
L.SOJINI: But wouldn’t the guys behind these ads say their ads made money?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: There is research that shows highly unlikeable ads are noted as highly likeable ads, so in the sense that the ad broke through the clutter and made an impact (albeit a negative one) you could say job well done.
However, it’s not what marketers or agencies actively try to do. No-one sits around the briefing table at the beginning of the process and says let’s spend R10m on production and R40 million on media and do something that people will find offensive and dislike intensely, or find boring and ignore completely.
There’s a beautiful saying I came across: ‘mediocrity is expensive’.
L.SOJINI: Have you ever changed your mind on an ad you initially though good or bad?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: Oh yes – hundreds of times. And often an ad I think is rubbish gets rave reviews by others. It’s a subjective process. I tend to be very critical about the strategic choices and whether the ad is as creative as it could be. I am looking from the outside in and don’t always have the benefit of the facts that governed those choices.
L.SOJINI: Do we have better ads these days?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: On the whole, no. I think the industry is held hostage to speed and volume, filling the ether with ‘digital landfill’ as Sir John Hegarty from BBH calls it.
I would advocate (and I do) for less is more. Spend less time on churning out thousands of ads, and spend more time crafting a few good ones.
Also, brands change their positioning and creative platforms like they change their underwear. Building solid brand assets and creating memory structures that help the consumer choose your brand in the purchase process takes time and consistency.
L.SOJINI: What publications do you read the most?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: I use Twitter as my newspaper so I read what people I admire are sharing. I read Marketing Week and Campaign and Ad Age and the Harvard Business Review – hundreds of magazines.
Locally I read BizCommunity, Retailing Africa and MarkLives.
I listen to podcasts, watch interviews and subscribe to hundreds of newsletters from clever people.
L.SOJINI: Do you skip ads? I’ll risk it and say maybe you don’t because bad ads have something to offer.
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: I tend not to skip them, because I’m interested in them.
L.SOJINI: What is your favourite book?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: The Little Prince.
L.SOJINI: Favourite quote?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: ‘That which is essential to the heart is invisible to the eye’.
L.SOJINI: Are you a music person? If so, what songs do you find yourself playing over and again?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: Yes, I played guitar for many years (folk, classical and flamenco) and played and sung in a band at university. I go through phases and my music taste is quite diverse so it just depends what I feel like.
The music I like to play loudly is Meatloaf, Faithless, Van Morrison, Peter Tosh, Nirvana, Vivaldi’s 4 Seasons, Pachelbel, B-Tribe. Too many to name.
L.SOJINI: How do you choose the music you play and which platforms do you use?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: By mood. I use Spotify. For some reason Apple music and me just didn’t gel.
L.SOJINI: What would your advice be if I wanted to market my romance novel and book of interviews on a zero budget?
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: Build your personal profile through social media channels. Tell the story of the story. Why did you write it – what’s your story?
Get yourself interviewed on radio or podcasts. Create a TikTok or Instagram series with quotes from the book so you build intrigue.
Send to some interesting people and ask them to read it and give you reviews.
L.SOJINI: Thank you for talking to me.
GILLIAN RIGHTFORD: Pleasure J
Stephen Horn
Apart from South Africa, Stephen Horn, a video content creator and founder of Politically Aweh, also grew up in France, perhaps the reason he’s into satire.
Asked about his favourite quote, he says he doesn’t have one. Instead, he provided a quote he says he finds useful for our times. The quote is ‘De gustibus non est disputandum’, a Latin expression meaning ‘In matters of taste, there can be no disputes’.
L.SOJINI: You do a lot of video content. How do you manage to shift from one type of video content to another? And, what’s the favourite content you love to create?
STEPHEN HORN: It’s true that I’ve worked across many different formats, from reality TV to documentaries, fiction work, branded content, event video, music video and more recently news satire.
I think the underlying factor is to be agile, keep learning and immerse yourself in the world of each project. For example, with each episode of Politically Aweh, I spend a lot of time reading and speaking to experts before writing the script with my team.
My favourite content to make at the moment is political satire because of the power it has to communicate important information through an engaging format. It also brings out the sarcastic side in me, which I didn’t realise was so strong!
L.SOJINI: You do satirical videos on climate change. How dangerous is satire when it comes to climate change? I mean to say that climate change is a complex subject, and satire is another ball game altogether. Don’t you run the risk of losing your audience?
STEPHEN HORN: We’ve found that the satirical format is actually really well paired with the climate change (or climate emergency) topic because of the nature of the threat.
It is an overwhelming slow burning topic that struggles for news attention but is the worst threat humanity faces – probably the most important issue of our time.
Humour and satire has been shown to help news consumers better understand issues and retain the facts. The recent satirical film, Don’t Look Up, starring prominent climate activist, Leonardo diCaprio, was very effective at communicating the difficulty of communicating climate change, ironically!
L.SOJINI: Let’s continue on this topic. I don’t read sites like The Onion, ’cause for you to understand American satire, you have to understand American politics and current affairs, and to understand that, you have to know American history. By the time it gets to that, the satire is lost on you. I suppose this is what I mean by saying you run the risk of losing your audience.
STEPHEN HORN: I understand where you’re coming from on American satire, and it’s why we are doing Politically Aweh – there is a huge gap in the market for local satire that speaks to South Africans directly, with local references and humour.
But another way we address this risk is by trying to include enough context in each video.
L.SOJINI: Tell me about Politically Aweh. I came across it, I don’t remember when. The first video I saw from you guys was the one with Zipho Majova about Eskom and loadshedding. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a dry topic dealt in a fun way. But I guess, my point is: how did Politically Aweh come about?
STEPHEN HORN: Great question! Having grown up partly in France, and being exposed to satire and youth news platforms there, I realised there is a gap in the market to cover news topics through humour.
In 2017, after thinking about it for a long time I decided to just try to write a script and hustled the first video about Makhosi Khoza into existence.
The Eskom video really put us on the map, and since then we have done another video about how we could make load shedding a thing of the past if there was the political will and if government focused on large scale deployment of renewable energy.
L.SOJINI: I can imagine the hate, but there must also be the love you received. I’m talking about reception. What do you think about the most – the hate or the love? Why?
STEPHEN HORN: It’s true that when you’re doing satire you’re going to make some enemies along the way.
The craziest moment was when the government’s Department of Mineral Resources and Energy Twitter account declared us ‘fake news’, but in a way, that only showed us the message was getting through.
The audience is an interesting phenomenon in the 21st century digital landscape. Algorithms continually bring back the same people and reinforce their pre-existing views so walking the generally nuanced, centrist line we try to take is a challenge and doesn’t reward you with viral hits overnight.
However our general approach has been to punch up and hold government accountable and there has been a lot of love from our community, which appreciates that someone is talking about the issues in the way we are.
One young South African reached out to us on Instagram and said we were giving her hope for the future of the country, and that really touched me.
L.SOJINI: I tend to ask questions and answer them partially, but Politically Aweh was a Jamlab accelerator team in 2019. But where I’m getting at is: surely you must have been thinking about this idea long before then?
STEPHEN HORN: As mentioned, we started in 2017 and I had been thinking about the idea for a few years before then.
Jamlab was a great space to network and continue building on the concept. It was during this time that I worked closely with Tyson Ngubeni, a fantastically talented comic. We had the successful Eskom load shedding episode and did a live studio audience episode for the 2019 elections with broadcast journalist, Lester Kiewit.
Jamlab was also linked to the University of Wits’ journalism department and it was an opportunity for me to share our learnings on the show so far with the next generation of media students
L.SOJINI: Let’s move to something else. You do write, don’t you? What do you write about?
STEPHEN HORN: At the moment it’s just Politically Aweh scripts, funding proposals, interview answers and to do lists I’m afraid!
I hope to one day write poetry, a memoir and perhaps even fiction, whether a novel or feature film script.
But then I think almost everyone has a story in them, and writing might be the most important thing we can do as humans.
L.SOJINI: Who’s your favourite author? Why?
STEPHEN HORN: I’ve been enjoying reading the likes of Isaac Asimov and Aldous Huxley recently and seeing what they say for our world today.
L.SOJINI: Favourite quote?
STEPHEN HORN: Not sure if it’s my ‘favourite’ but a useful one for our times is ‘De gustibus non est disputandum’, a Latin expression meaning ‘In matters of taste, there can be no disputes’.
L.SOJINI: Your Twitter handle is ‘@SteveSince91’. Surely, there’s no need to ask how it came about?
STEPHEN HORN: Indeed, it is quite straightforward. I was ‘established’ in 1991! Might have to change this handle at some point!
L.SOJINI: You joined Twitter in 2009. What made you join? And how Twitter like in 2009?
STEPHEN HORN: In 2009, all the social media platforms were a lot less algorithm-driven, so your feed was less tailored. It wasn’t as engaging a space but perhaps better in some ways because you saw a little bit more of everything.
I am very interested in climate change and so my feed is full of scientists, news sources and activists who discuss climate change, but what I realised is someone interested in football, for example, will pretty much only see a timeline full of football and will hardly see climate content.
The trending tab on Twitter is useful to see what the national conversation is about, however those trends are frequently hijacked by bad actors or brands.
So a real challenge for Politically Aweh is for us to work out how to reach non-news reading audiences with important news information, and not ‘preach to the converted’. That is something I think about a lot and is the point of the humour and pop culture references.
L.SOJINI: How has the platform changed and stayed the same in 2022?
STEPHEN HORN: Refer to the above.
L.SOJINI: Let’s talk about music. Would you say questions about music made you more interested in taking part in this interview? Whatever the case, what comes to mind when you hear the word ‘music’?
STEPHEN HORN: Video editing, which I have done as a freelancer since leaving university, shares a commonality with music in that it is a time-based medium and is a lot about pacing, rhythm, building to moments of climax etc.
I love music and it has been a recurring theme in the projects I’ve been involved in, from working on a music collaboration series, Mashlab, to working on the first season of The Voice Afrique Francophone.
I am interested in growing Politically Aweh into a news satire cross talk-variety format at some point which would also include music. A lot of music in South Africa is political, just look at the role of struggle songs, and newer music like YoungstaCPT, Sun-El Musician's ‘Uhuru’ and Ami Faku’s ‘Imali’.
It’s again about that approach of bringing different worlds together to help the news crossover into non-news consuming audiences.
L.SOJINI: You do a lot of work around music. Surely, this is more than just work for you? Where I’m getting at is: what does every musical project you work on, and those you don’t work on, do to you in terms of your appreciation and knowledge of music?
STEPHEN HORN: Refer to the above.
L.SOJINI: What music do you listen to? Why?
STEPHEN HORN: A very wide range, including local and international artists. House, AmaPiano, EDM, electronic music, classical, jazz, pop…
You should see my ‘favourites’ playlist, it’s a very confused child! I listen to a wide genre I think because of the upbringing I had which was both in South Africa and France.
L.SOJINI: What time do you usually eat lunch? And what do you typically eat?
STEPHEN HORN: Haha! So usually around midday like everyone else! I gave up meat in 2012 after learning about the immoral practices in the meat industry and the harmful ecological effects.
I encourage others to consider reducing or eliminating meat from their diets.
I know this is not easy in South Africa however, as it is a big part of our culture. Trust me I was mocked at more than a few braais! The connection between eating and braaing meat and masculinity in South Africa is definitely worthy of an episode of Politically Aweh!
L.SOJINI: On your website, you talk about projects you call ‘passion projects’. Surely, there’s a passion project you’d want to make that would go big? Tell me about that.
STEPHEN HORN: I am working on a passion project with some other climate activists and marketing industry professionals called Clean Creatives. It is a US-based campaign which we are bringing to South Africa. It is a pledge which asks the advertising and PR industry to stop working with fossil fuel companies.
Essentially, having a fossil fuel company as a client means you are complicit in the destruction of the life support systems we require as a human species to survive into the future. We urgently need to curb the greenwashing so the general public understands the need to rapidly shift away from fossil fuels.
L.SOJINI: You say you speak French as well, so let me ask you to answer these last questions in French. How did a Capetonian end up speaking French?
STEPHEN HORN: J’ai grandi à Paris entre l’âge de 8 et 10 ans, et je suis revenu en France, au Pays Basque, pour un échange Rotary International en 2008.
L.SOJINI: What is your favourite French novel?
STEPHEN HORN: Je ne lis pas trop de romans français, mais je me souviens d’avoir apprécié L’étranger d’Albert Camus.
L.SOJINI: Tell me about ‘Lemony Snicket’s “The Miserable Mill”. You can even talk about your thoughts on animation.
STEPHEN HORN: It’s a darkly comic novel for the YA audience that my friends and I adapted into an animated film in high school. It was my first real taste of creative collaboration and took us over one and half years to complete.
Back then we used a piece of software called Macromedia Flash, which is almost non-existent these days, but back then it was a very popular way of creating dynamic content for the internet. Back then, my friends and I would watch Flash animated content like Happy Tree Friends and shorts on websites like Newgrounds.com, eBaumsWorld and play Flash games on Miniclip.com. It was a special time for the internet pre-social media.
Animation is a really powerful tool in storytelling. I love what people are doing locally, like Noko Mashaba, Mike Scott, Triggerfish studios and many others.
One of the most amazing uses of animation was in the documentary called Liyana, in which orphaned Swazi children use the power of storytelling, under the guidance of gifted storyteller Gcina Mhlophe, to deal with trauma and craft a narrative to tell their own stories. This story within a story is then brought to life through beautiful animation.
L.SOJINI: Thank you for talking to me.
STEPHEN HORN: Pleasure, thank you for the interview!
Hagen Engler
Hagen Engler turned 50 in 2021, and to celebrate the milestone, he gave 50 copies of his novel (The Trustees) to friends and family.
He has previously worked at FHM, and is also a rocker in about two bands.
He has authored a couple of books (some self-published and some published by Jacana).
Currently he’s the Head of Writing at Ogilvy PR & Influence.
L.SOJINI: The Trustees (2021) is your latest novel. What is it about? And how long did you take to write it?
HAGEN ENGLER: Hey man. Thanks for the questions and for the opportunity to talk about my work.
Yes, I published The Trustees last year, and it’s my fourth novel. Let me just go check the blurb real quick… It says here, ‘Set after the era of illusory certainty, it charts the journey of a group of neighbours thrust together into a community of necessity. In a time of global trauma, they must decide which of the values and things handed to them in trust is really worth preserving’.
It starts in a townhouse complex when everything goes down – the power, the comms, the supply chains. And they need to band together to defend themselves and stay alive. Then there is a strange static in the air that starts killing the oldest people. So the youngest rise to become leaders and must decide how to proceed. There’s a road trip to a remote farm, where they might find sanctuary and salvation, or not…
I wrote it in November 2017. Then I cleaned it up a little subsequently. I wrote it in 30 days, as part of the NaNoWriMo project – National November Writing Month, where you have to do 1500 words a day. I wanted to write it in one go, instead of having it be something that lives in your laptop and you leave it and come back to it over years. I found there you start repeating yourself, or you have to reread what you’ve written every time you come back to it, which is a las. It worked quite well, cos it was quite cohesive, even though it was a rather intense month of typing.
I showed the manuscript to some people, who liked it. But I published a couple of other things before returning to The Trustees. Then I turned 50 last year, and so to celebrate I published the novel and gave 50 copies to my friends and family. I also sold a few. I’ve always self-published as well as doing things through established publishers. Usually Jacana Media.
L.SOJINI: Since I’m also a novelist, I hate it when people ask me what my novel is about, instead of finding what it’s all about after reading, but that’s me being misanthropic. But tell me, what’s the journey like marketing and selling your books?
HAGEN ENGLER: Congratulations on your novels. Putting something together and publishing it is an achievement. You may know that many novelists are not marketers by inclination.
This one I just gave away mainly. I sold a few through a guy named Innocent who sells books on the street in Melville. Otherwise, I’m a bit cynical about the publishing industry. And I’m not a particularly good marketer. Books I’ve done through Jacana are marketed through their channels.
Basically, the industry is founded on a relationship between the publishers, distributors and retailers. So, you need to get in there to be part of the mainstream. Otherwise, you need to build your own model.
I also ghostwrite books for people, and the most successful ones are those who approach the book as part of a broader strategy. Eg. with eLearning courses, public talks and webinars, or other services. Especially with non-fiction, the book can be a tool, as much as a product. Also, it’s just a good way to market yourself and build your brand in whatever career you follow.
L.SOJINI: You’ve done the magazines, edited FHM. Surely this makes you a better novelist?
HAGEN ENGLER: Not necessarily. Magazine writing is quite a different format to novels. The mag I was at was all about entertaining content, so it has helped me with some of the non-fiction stuff I’ve done, such as Black Twitter Blitz & A Boerie.
But you are right in that the magazine experience has helped a bit around content ideas. Gender relations is something I think about, and FHM was certainly a part of the gender conversation. Some ideas coming from that emerged in my previous novel, In The Maid’s Room.
L.SOJINI: What is it about writing a novel that the magazines can’t do? And what is it about the magazines that the novel won’t do?
HAGEN ENGLER: Mags can be visual and dynamic and exist on several platforms. They can address vastly different types of content in the same editorial mix. It has a formula but can be quite diverse.
Novels are a more static form. They do allow for developing themes at length and over time, which can make for a deeper examination of issues. And they can tell more complex stories. They also seem to be taken more seriously, while magazines sometimes seem a bit ephemeral. It’s debatable, but novels seem to have survived the digital-media migration better than magazines, most of which have perished.
L.SOJINI: Black Twitter, Blitz and a Boerie As Long As Your Leg: And Other South African National Treasures is the name of your 2019 novel. Surely we have more novels of this nature that are being written and published?
HAGEN ENGLER: That was more of a non-fiction thing. It was basically a hundred-odd entries celebrating cool things about South Africa. From Highveld thunderstorms to the Blitzboks to umleqwa to Boity Thulo’s bum. It was fun to write, and there are no shortage of cool quirky things to celebrate about life.
I liked that it was a positive, optimistic and entertaining book. As I say, it also gave me a chance to use some magazine-writing forms. And just to be funny. Ironically, I was going through hectic, dark personal stuff at the time, following my divorce, so I wasn’t in the funniest mood all the time. But I think it worked out okay. It was published with the lovely Nadia Goetham of Jacana, who sadly died during the pandemic.
L.SOJINI: A modern novel would be incomplete without mentioning Pearl Thusi, wouldn’t it be?
HAGEN ENGLER: Pearl Thusi is an incredible presence, a media and business phenomenon… and outrageously beautiful to boot. Love, respect and admiration to Pearl Thusi. A national asset indeed!
L.SOJINI: You’re the Head of Writing at Ogilvy PR and influence. Don’t you find yourself putting fiction into PR work and PR into your novels?
HAGEN ENGLER: I prefer to think of what we do as strategic communication. Not all comms goes to the public – lots of it is internal, or addressed to government, industry and other stakeholders.
In that sense, novels can be a form of strategic communication if they’re aimed at shaping opinions or changing attitudes.
Non-fiction books do that especially well, but fiction can too. I tried to address some race and gender issues in In The Maid’s Room, for instance.
L.SOJINI: What time do you write? I imagine you write during the day but this must also mean you write during the night?...
HAGEN ENGLER: I write every day because of my work, but then for personal creative book-writing I might go months without doing anything. Then if I have an idea, I’ll have a bit of a rush of energy and power through it.
I play in a band called Feel So Strongs, and another one called Jedi Rollers, which I’ve been in for more than 20 years. I’m constantly writing songs, and rhymes and words for those projects, so that is probably my main writing outlet at the moment. Playing rock n roll shows is also awesome now we’re out of lockdown.
L.SOJINI: What has the writing of David Ogilvy taught you about writing PR material? I’m also interested in what his writing taught you about writing novels?
HAGEN ENGLER: I guess David Ogilvy’s main achievement was building the Ogilvy group. So what I’ve learned from him has been largely through osmosis as part of the group culture I have been part of for the past five years.
In terms of his writing, I do know he believed in simplicity of messaging and clarity of thought. That is valid, and today many organisations have also come to value clear, simple writing.
L.SOJINI: Do you find these questions cumbersome?
HAGEN ENGLER: Nah, I’m good. It’s a good opportunity to talk about some of what I do. And doing that always gives you fresh insights into your own work because you’re forced to think about it in new ways.
L. SOJINI
L.SOJINI: How did you get into PR? And maybe you can just state how you got started into writing?
HAGEN ENGLER: I may have been destined to be a writer from school days, where English was my best subject. I was a keen reader and writer, and I went and did journalism at Rhodes. Then started in journalism.
I’ve tried several writing disciplines, including screenwriting, novels, ghostwriting, reporting and magazine writing.
After my time at FHM ended, I became a freelance writer – which is incredibly difficult, by the way. With publishing in trauma, I had to take stock of my skill set and find new opportunities. I realised I was basically a writer, not necessarily just a journalist, which had always been part of my self-image up to that point.
When you distil your skills down like that, then you see far more opportunities.
I had a few offers for freelancing in PR. For a journalist you need to shed your precious superiority complex first, but PR is every bit as interesting as journalism. You get to shape trends and opinions, even affect laws and administrations sometimes.
L.SOJINI: What makes good PR?
HAGEN ENGLER: Awareness of your audience and your objectives and using the right tools to achieve them.
L.SOJINI: If a person wanted to become a better advertiser, what novel would you lead them to?
HAGEN ENGLER: If they want to work in advertising, they should consider taking a short course at an industry-specific school or college. Then try to get into the industry itself as soon as possible.
You only really learn it by doing it and being in the industry. There are also graduate courses – at Ogilvy for instance – that help talented people get into the industry to everyone’s benefit.
L.SOJINI: Are you a music person? If so, what music do you listen to and what platforms do you use?
HAGEN ENGLER: I make music and I have done since the 90s. I perform solo as Inspector Ras, doing singer-songwriter stuff and spoken word. I play in the bands The Feel So Strongs and Jedi Rollers.
FSS just put an EP out this year. No Buzz/No Click, it’s called and it’s on the streaming services.
Our last song with Jedi Rollers was called ‘A Glimmer of Light’. It’s also on streaming and we made quite a cool video for it, that you can find on YouTube. We also made a concert movie, Jedi Return.
L.SOJINI: What’s your greatest achievement career wise?
HAGEN ENGLER: Maybe getting nominated for the longlist for the Sunday Times Barry Ronge fiction prize for the novel In The Maid’s Room.
At FHM we achieved significant sales and built a passionate community of readers. We sold about 160 000 at one stage and also won a few awards for publishing.
In music we played Oppikoppi with another band we had called The Near Misses.
Jedi Rollers made a Top 10 album and single, and I’ve been invited to Franschhoek Literary festival a couple of times.
The books I’ve published have sold a few thousand, which is something also.
I would say ultimately that my main achievement has been building a certain amount of respect for my work among my colleagues and audiences.
L.SOJINI: What kind of a dresser are you? Casual or formal?
HAGEN ENGLER: Casual. Sometimes I don’t mind a little rock n roll aesthetic. And for work, I would wear a collared shirt for interviewing executives and stuff. But even that seems to have fallen by the wayside since the pandemic!
I respect people who express themselves through fashion, although I’m not very good at it. My daughter Liso, who lives with me is great that way. Just no embarrassment. Wear what you feel and go out. She rocks a bunny-rabbit onesie like a queen!
L.SOJINI: What time do you usually eat lunch? And what do you like eating for lunch?
HAGEN ENGLER: I would say I’m a 12.30 luncher. If I’m at home, I’ll probably go with peanut butter toast and coffee.
The Ogilvy office is in Bryanston, so often I’ll feel the call of Chicken Licken if I’m there when the noontime bell goes in my stomach.
L.SOJINI: Would I be correct in saying you speak Xhosa and can write it as well? I guess you can respond to this and the last questions in Xhosa.
HAGEN ENGLER: Hayi, siyazam uthetha. S’chat’ umXhosa mos, ne sizalelw’eMambozana but I cannot realistically call myself a Xhosa speaker.
I am comfortable in the company of Xhosa people and I can greet, follow a conversation and make myself understood using basic words.
Invariably Xhosa people speak better English than me, so that becomes the language we use.
I find I also learn vernac through popular culture – music, TV and movies.
In our band FSS, we try to make a type of African rock using some Xhosa words and music. We do a medley with ‘Jikel’emaweni’ and a cover of ‘Incwad’encane’ by Zahara for example.
I’m just your basic clumsy white person trying to educate himself and blundering through my own insensitivity and privilege, but we stay trying.
L.SOJINI: And will I be right to think that you would have worked with the late Bob Rightford? I raise this up cause he was Gillian Rightford’s father-in-law, and Gillian is one of the interviewees I’ve interviewed recently.
HAGEN ENGLER: I’m afraid I did not. I came relatively recently to the marketing game. I am aware of his legacy and to this day, Ogilvy SA is a respected part of the global group. Possibly this is due to the culture of excellence he helped to build here.
L.SOJINI: Thank you for talking to me.
HAGEN ENGLER: An absolute pleasure. Thank you for your thoughtful questions,
H.
Thinus Ferreira
Thinus Ferreira is an independent television critic. Formerly news editor of TVPlus, he has written or have been quoted for publications such as MyBroadband, Die Burger, News24 and Stuff and has appeared on radio.
He’s a blogger, and has been blogging since 2009. He says he spends at least 80 hours a week watching TV. It all started ‘with his parent’s black and white Barlow set being his introduction to the world of television’, the Media Update wrote in 2016.
L.SOJINI: You’ve been writing about TV for the longest time. How long has it been? And how did you get started?
THINUS FERREIRA: I started out as a financial journalist covering companies and economics news, then moved to hard news (main news) reporting on absolutely everything.
After managing other journalists for a while as news editor, I moved to TVPlus magazine for half a decade and left there to work for myself to cover the TV and film business in South Africa and across Africa more incisively from a trade and industry perspective.
L.SOJINI: You follow TV news and trends in SA, that’s a given. But you also follow American and British TV. Tell me about that.
THINUS FERREIRA: It’s a bit of ‘both worlds’. I keep an eye on what is happening locally, as well as internationally but from the perspective of how that fits in locally, or is applicable locally for South Africa, Africa as a whole, or another country in Africa.
If an overseas show for instance has a possibility of being shown locally, then it’s of interest. If something overseas doesn’t have any bearing for the local TV industry, then I can ignore it.
American or British journalists or trade publications only cover their ‘small’ world, they hardly look further or acknowledge a wider industry. I try to infuse the applicable global with the local.
L.SOJINI: The sleazy the show, the more viewers it'll get. Is that true? And what’s the worst TV stuff we’ve ever seen on South African television?
THINUS FERREIRA: In any medium the audience or media consumer usually gravitate – or more of them – to tabloid coverage than high-brow premium content, you’re always going to have more viewers for a tabloid type talk show or reality show than a high-end documentary although the documentary ironically takes longer and costs more to produce and ends up with fewer viewers.
South African television production – often with small budgets – do sometimes veer too much into exploitation TV. The audience becomes the product – in the way that Facebook does – where it ‘feeds’ off of the user to create and be the content.
Moja Love for instance gets a lot of viewers on MultiChoice’s DStv platform for essentially exploiting the very viewers watching the channel for some shows where these viewers – who don’t know better – are featured in and then become the very content they are consuming.
It also happened in America during the 1980s with the rise of tabloid talk show television where shows chased ratings by constantly going after more and more salacious topics and guests.
L.SOJINI: In 2014, you lamented the way SABC and Vodacom handled X Factor. I don’t wanna discuss that, but what I wanna say is: when a person at home sees anything on TV, they think it’s a hit. But you as a critic look at this and say, No. We can’t be doing TV like that. What’s your take on this? Surely, there’s TV just for the sake of TV…
THINUS FERREIRA: Yes, there’s TV for TV’s sake but it’s important to keep in mind the overall diet of the TV viewer or video consumer, or the overall offering – both from a channel like a TV channel from a public broadcaster, as well as the overall mix available to a public broadcast viewer or a pay-TV viewer.
You can’t eat hamburgers daily but what happens when the only food on offer are just fast-food television or a majority of that? The viewer ends up picking those because the majority of choices are from a certain genre that’s entertaining but empty calorie television.
When you work in media – not just in television – the race to the bottom is always easier. It’s easier to roll a rock downhill than uphill. It’s more important to try and create meaningful, better content and to work harder and longer to try and create a mass media product that will have a type of shelf life, than just here-today, gone-tomorrow types of vapid, meaningless content.
If you work in media, you’re a creator. You have an urge inside you to shape, create and put something out there that you want people to consume but also for it to hopefully change or inspire or move people.
Work harder as a creator to create something of value – not just in TV but in that medium too – that has a level of impact and permanence.
L.SOJINI: You said in that piece that the purpose of a show like the X Factor is to unearth people like Susan Boyle, a person people couldn’t stop talking about. You can elaborate on that, but surely it’s forgivable for a show not to find such people?
THINUS FERREIRA: Of course it’s okay for a show built on finding talent not to find a star, but then you’ve failed in a sense because that was/is the aim. You can’t make something out of nothing, but you can create something bigger out of something.
Don’t do a reality talent competition show of any kind if you don’t have a professional, skilled content producer who can find the elements – like worthwhile contestants – before you start the show.
The TV viewer is the consumer. They pay by giving you attention and time. If you’re not giving them what the premise of a show promises – for instance good contestants in a reality show – you’re disrespectful of their attention and time and not making good on the value proposition you offered.
Someone will buy your laundry detergent but if the clothes don’t come out satisfactorily clean or very clean, the consumer is going to drop your brand for another one and TV shows who don’t make good on the promise run the same risk.
L.SOJINI: Big Brother just ended. Why does a show like that have such a hold on the audience? Is such a hold healthy?
THINUS FERREIRA: It’s fine to have a hobby. People engage with and become immersed in certain shows from a fan point of view similar to people who collect stamps or collect for any hobby, or love a certain artist, or place or belong to a community of like-minded people who love a certain thing.
It’s healthy as long as it doesn’t become all-consuming. It’s fine to enjoy Formula 1 racing as long as you don’t go totally overboard. The same with liking and watching a reality show. Enjoy it and watch every episode but don’t start to stalk the contestants for instance.
L.SOJINI: Was the show successful in your eyes? I mean the show was trending, and I thought Themba was a revelation.
THINUS FERREIRA: Trending doesn’t pay the bills and the show was a disappointment from a ratings perspective and a lot of factors cause that. It will be interesting to see if MultiChoice and M-Net decide to do another Big Brother Mzansi on DStv.
Several things didn’t happen and were done differently and incorrectly from when previous seasons of Big Brother were done, and there was limited to no media buy-in or interest, the pop-up channel was made available and then taken away and then opened again and all of those things have an impact on ratings.
Oftentimes broadcasters in South Africa, unlike America, don’t see or recognise the role that media covering TV play in helping to bring awareness to a show, to help build and sustain interest, or is an important factor in informing the very viewers and consumers they’re looking for, about their programming.
L.SOJINI: Let’s step away from what people like and what makes commercial sense. What do you like watching? Why?
THINUS FERREIRA: Almost anything. I watch almost anything. Every day watching TV is like walking into a new museum or art gallery or car showroom. You might know about one or more specific things in there – like a Mona Lisa in the Louvre or a brand-new Bugatti but the joy is in seeing what else is new and different that you haven’t been exposed to or didn’t know is there.
I appreciate the ‘art’ of the production of different types of television, seeing how shows are put together and just watching anything – the good stuff as well as the bad stuff. You won’t know what’s good if you haven’t watched the bad.
L.SOJINI: Surely there’s bad TV you enjoy watching?
THINUS FERREIRA: I would tell myself I will never watch an episode of the Kardashians ever again and sometimes when I channel hop something like the Kardashians is on and I realised I’ve watched another episode of Scott fighting with Kris or whatever.
I watch a lot of reality show that I shouldn’t. In the way that you shouldn’t ‘upsize’ your meal at McDonalds and you know it, but you still end up doing it anyway.
L.SOJINI: You’ve sort of covered all TV news. People getting married. People dying. New actors emerging. Bogus auditions. Court cases. What would you say is the biggest or most memorable story you’ve ever covered?
THINUS FERREIRA: It’s really difficult to single out a specific thing. My own ego doesn’t play a role in it but I would say when reporting has caused a change, or cause a slight change towards the good or the better.
It’s when a broadcaster or a channel or a production company changes something because of reporting that the entire industry benefits and grows and becomes better.
I feel we don’t have enough reporting about South Africa’s TV and film industry and the more and the better it’s covered, the more and the better it will constantly become because there will be more feedback about the good, the bad and the ugly.
L.SOJINI: Do TV adverts excite you? And what do you think are their role?
THINUS FERREIRA: I’m not against adverts and some are also art. I often go to YouTube and look at iconic, old and interesting ads from now and long ago from many different countries.
Besides having been created for a commerial reason – they’re selling a product or service – they are actually little art reations. Great ones are inventive, play with viewer expectations and really great TV commercials definitely inspire any creator or artistic person to really not be bound by convention, to keep experimenting and to be creative.
L.SOJINI: Would you be able to say what a good advert is?
THINUS FERREIRA: I think you just feel it. A great commercial resonates with you on an emotional level because of the visuals and the music. You feel the message in your heart as opposed to ‘understanding’ it with your mind – similar to a great song you like. It moves you.
It might not move you to buy the product or service – the advertiser certainly hopes so – but it awakens a certain emotional response inside you when you see and hear it.
L.SOJINI: Do ad agencies consult you? Tell me about that. And also tell me if TV makers consult you?
THINUS FERREIRA: No, haha. No ad agencies or TV makers have ever consulted me or asked me for help.
L.SOJINI: You cite poor publicity as a reason why many TV shows flop. Shouldn’t good TV market itself?
THINUS FERREIRA: I can probably talk for days about this. It’s really probably my biggest pet peeve.
Dear TV maker, TV channel or whoever: You spend millions on making a show and when it’s time to show it, you don’t tell the media or viewers about it. Why? It’s so irritating and reminds me of the saying of ‘If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it’.
Every single person in life constantly has the same week, with the same hours and same minutes. We constantly fill our week up with more and more things. Think of what your attention goes to. It defies belief that TV channels and broadcasters and TV shows don’t do more or at least something to promote their shows and to bring it under the attention of the very people you want to engage with what you’ve made – the viewer.
Good shows do market themselves but how are people even supposed to know it’s on in the first place, what it’s about or whatever else is interesting or informative around it? It’s bizarre that publicists get paid and do little to nothing, don’t know how to deal with the media or often even who the relevant media are, and are supposed to be better communicators than the general person with better communicating skills, but then don’t communicate about TV shows.
South Africa still has a very far way to go in this respect. Publicists from overseas communicate more and better about foreign shows from their countries with media in South Africa, than a lot of publicitiy people working for channels and shows in South Africa.
L.SOJINI: Is there such a thing as bad publicity? I mean, if a show generates publicity for being awful, isn’t that a win?
THINUS FERREIRA: Mostly even bad publicity is good publicity because it means people are talking and giving attention to you or something.
There are a few instances where bad is really bad, but every bad thing is still or has the opportunity to be turned around. If you’re getting a bad rap, what are you doing to use that attention and to turn it into something better or worthwhile?
L.SOJINI: I've heard you offer criticism on radio. How does that feel?
THINUS FERREIRA: It’s basically exactly the same as when friends and I or a group of TV critics come together and talk about everything television. Often when I travel to TV junkets or media events for TV shows there are long, long, long rides or travelling or waiting at airports or sitting in airplanes and we use that time to talk among each other about what we’re watching, what we think of it and what’s new or interesting. ‘Have you’ve watched that show? Do you know about this or that?’
When I speak on radio during an interview it’s very much the same as when I’m watching TV with friends and we discuss what we’re seeing on the screen.
L.SOJINI: Where do you source your information? And can you give me an example where you got it wrong?
THINUS FERREIRA: It’s the publicity people working for TV channels or broadcasters or shows, people working on those shows, or generally people working within the broader industry.
I get information from reading very boring reports issued by a regulator for instance, or what is said in parliament, or reading through ratings.
People email me or call me, or I go to things or do set visits. Nothing will ever replace going to a place or to a person as a journalist and interviewing them and talking to them.
Yes I’ve gotten things wrong and it’s extremely important to correct it as soon as you can, and to always search out the most correct information. You’re only as good as your sources or the people who you talk to. It’s very important to figure out what people as sources are trustworthy, credible and accurate.
L.SOJINI: How have people received your journalism and criticism?
THINUS FERREIRA: Many probably don’t like it but it’s probably do do with not understanding the role or function. My intent isn’t to bash or destroy or say ‘this is bad’ or ‘this is wrong’ the whole time, and hopefully when I say that it’s motivated and not just based on my ‘feeling’.
Hopefully I say ‘this is not good because of this and because of that’. People, mostly in South Africa, haven’t yet evolved where they understand that the attention you get correlates to your importance. If media or I as a journalist writes or reports about you – whether you see it as a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ or a whatever story – realise that the journalist or media is giving you attention; is giving you oxygen; is giving you time. It signals that you matter. It signals that out of everything that journalist or editor or publication could have chosen to report on, it chose you. It means you matter. Would you rather be completely ignored? A lot of people or places never get attention because they maybe matter less or the media don’t know about them or it. Value that you have enough whatever that you have.
It’s always interesting how some Hollywood typesor stars would complain about ‘oh the paparazzi’. The paparazzi around you are an indication of your importance, your value, the currency that you have. They won’t be around you forever. One day they will move on because the public’s interest in you went away. Be glad you have paparazzi around you even though they’re a nuisance. It means you matter because they’re around you and not around someone else.
L.SOJINI: Tell me about your work with TV Plus.
THINUS FERREIRA: I was there for exactly half a decade and left as news editor in the early 2000s. After exactly five years I felt I’ve reached a ceiling. I could have stayed and retired there but I just reached a point where I felt I could do more and do more on my own.
I had many wonderful opportunities and I left on a good foot and remained friends until today with several colleagues I’ve worked with there.
It was great walking into the office every day and go: ‘Did you see what Brooke did last night?’ and everyone would just know who and what show you’re talking about, would share their thoughts and there wasn’t ever a thing of ‘oh why are people talking about television and as if these people really exist and wasting their time?’.
L.SOJINI: Does being with TV Plus qualify you as an independent critic?
THINUS FERREIRA
I’ve worked for myself for almost 20 years now so I am really independent. No broadcaster or media place or whatever pays me a salary and nobody has ever told me what I should and shouldn’t or can and can’t say because I’m part of a specific company that maybe also has ties to this or that broadcaster or whatever.
None of my friends even work in TV and I have gone out of my way not to be on or in TV or have friends or make friends with people in TV so that I can remain objective about everyone.
L.SOJINI: What do you enjoy most about being a critic?
THINUS FERREIRA: I get to watch television for a living – the good and the bad and for me it’s wonderful.
Other journalists get to drive vehicles as car critics or go for stays in the world’s hotels and resorts as a travel journalists.
I get to sit on my couch and go to different worlds in many different stories every single day and it’s just amazing.
L.SOJINI: What music do you listen to?
THINUS FERREIRA: I don’t listen to music as much but I listen to almost every genre, and the sadder the song(s) the better, although I’m not beyond listening and enjoying cheerful stuff.
I really enjoy most music. I like general knowledge and to grow my general knowledge so I listen and read and watch as much stuff, and different as I can.
L.SOJINI: What’s your favourite book?
THINUS FERREIRA: Absolutely impossible to say. If there’s ever a fire – I hope not – I will probably run and save books. Books and jackets are probably the only two ‘vices’ I have in life. I want real physical books and I enjoy reading physical newspapers.
Bookshops are dangerous places. I will not have money to spend and if I walk into a bookshop chances are I will walk out having bought a book or two. It’s irresistible.
L.SOJINI: Favourite quote?
THINUS FERREIRA: It’s from J.M. Coetzee’s Waiting for the Barbarians which is true of life. ‘The new men of Empire are the ones who believe in new chapters, fresh starts, new chapters, clean pages. I struggle on with the old story, hoping that before it is finished, it will reveal to me why it was that I thought it worth the trouble’ It’s literally scribble on a little card inside my wallet.
L.SOJINI: What time do you usually eat lunch? And what do you usually eat?
THINUS FERREIRA: I should eat better. I hardly ever eat lunch but I love, love, love bread. And it’s probably bad.
There’s always the rush of the next email, the next episode of something, the next story, the next titbit of information to collect and to report out. I really should get and stick to decent meal times like proper, well-adjusted, normal people do.
I’m very boring. My best friends laugh when we go to restaurants because I’m very-very bland and boring and if in America I would have been the person the waiter asks ‘The usual?’ I’m that one. I’m fine with the same meal – not that I’m averse to trying new things, but I really like to eat the same things over and over again.
I love bread, cheese, chips and coffee and can’t imagine my life without those. I have not met a chip I don’t like.
Mandy Collins
Mandy Collins has on occasion described herself as ‘procastninja’. What’s that? It’s one of the questions I ask Collins, a writer who has done television writing with the Sunday Times, written children’s books and has her own outlet where she provides communication and writing services to clients.
Collins studied journalism at Rhodes University. At a later stage, she studied Sociolinguistics at UNISA.
Collins, who speaks a little bit of French and Xhosa besides English and Afrikaans, believes that writing is a craft, not an art. To be a better writer, she says one has to imitate the writers they admire.
‘I find digital music sterile’, Collins says when we talk about music.
L.SOJINI: You did Sociolinguistics at UNISA. What is Sociolinguistics and what unique insights does it give you about life and language?
MANDY COLLINS: Sociolinguistics is the most fascinating study of how society and language influence each other. It helps you to understand how and why languages change, how we shape language and it shapes us, and how it functions in the world in all kinds of settings.
If I could choose any topic to immerse myself in, it would be Sociolinguistics. (I could go on, but we’d be here all day.)
It has taught me that change is an essential part of life and survival. When languages don’t change, they die – and so do we.
It has taught me to appreciate the wealth of languages we have in South Africa, and the richness in each one.
It has taught me to delight in the way language adapts to a changing world, and to celebrate that instead of remaining grumpily in the past.
L.SOJINI: You studied journalism. In fact you say your roots are in journalism. Does that mean you’ve always wanted to be in journalism?
MANDY COLLINS: No. In fact, my plan was to become a chartered accountant until a teacher suggested I might be bored and think about journalism instead. And so off I went to Rhodes University without really giving it too much thought!
What I mean by that is that even though I do very little journalism now, I still think like a journalist – I look for the story, the news, the nugget of interest that will capture the reader.
I find the best way to tell that story in a way that is engaging. And I keep things simple and sharp, to appeal to the broadest possible audience.
L.SOJINI: You write on your website that ‘the right words can go a long way towards easing a situation; the wrong ones can cause untold damage’. Can you give me an example where wrong words caused untold damage?
MANDY COLLINS: There are so many examples from everyday life! Think of the badly phrased, hastily dashed off text that is misconstrued, for instance.
Think of the vocabulary of bigotry. Think of those viral tweets that have ended people’s careers or seen them end up in court.
Think of hate speech, or the utterances of those who would seek to stir up violence against others. Words can wound, they can cause reputational damage, they can start a war.
L.SOJINI: You do a lot of writing, I take it. What kind of writing do your clients ask from you mostly? And what content do you enjoy writing the most?
MANDY COLLINS: I do an even spread of writing, editing, proofreading, and strategic review of corporate documents.
I have to say, I still love writing a good piece of journalism more than anything, but I seldom do that anymore. And the word counts have shrunk so much that it’s hard to find something you can really sink your teeth into.
The work I enjoy the most now, is taking corporate documents – from policies, to communication of various kinds, to media plans and strategies – and giving them a good restructure, and then working on the language so that they go from boring to bada-boom, and become something engaging, accessible and most importantly, effective.
L.SOJINI: What’s the hardest part of writing?
MANDY COLLINS: Starting when it’s something I don’t feel like writing. Sometimes I need to apply extra bum glue.
L.SOJINI: And the easiest?
MANDY COLLINS: I actually find writing very easy once I’ve started. I think it was Thomas Mann who said, ‘A writer is somebody for whom writing is more difficult than it is for other people’.
I don’t find the writing part difficult at all.
L.SOJINI: How does one become a better writer?
MANDY COLLINS: Practice and imitation. Writing is a craft, not an art. So you have to keep working at it – and keep working at the thing you’re writing. You don’t just sit down and write it and it’s done. That’s called a first draft. You write that, and then the writing really begins in the edit, where you tweak and refine and most importantly, cull the unnecessary words.
And then, I always advise people who want to improve, to find their favourite writers and try to write like them – not forever – but just as an exercise. Because what that forces you to do, is figure out how they write the way they do. It makes you analyse the techniques they employ so that you can imitate them. And then you can decide which of those techniques work for you, feel authentic to you, and which you want to discard. Because the ultimate goal is to find your own voice.
L.SOJINI: You say you’re not an advertising copywriter. I could ask you why not, but surely you’d know great advertising copy if you saw it, wouldn’t you?
MANDY COLLINS: Undoubtedly! And I have great admiration for those pithy, clever phrases and taglines. But I’m terrible at anything sales-y and I would literally just produce an endless string of bad puns.
I’d be fired before my probation was over. I’m a content writer – it’s a very different proposition.
L.SOJINI: You’ve written for kids. What was the process like?
MANDY COLLINS: I absolutely love it. I have some other manuscripts lying around, but it’s so tough to get children’s books published in South Africa!
Writing children’s books, I think, is hugely underestimated. You have a much shorter space in which to tell your story. And you have to pitch at a level that’s understandable, but not talk down to them.
And then you have to keep trimming and trimming, especially if it’s a picture book.
L.SOJINI: Do you have writing rituals?
MANDY COLLINS: Well, I must have a large cup of tea ready to go. And then I must scroll through social media for at least an hour. Does that count?
L.SOJINI: As someone who studied Sociolinguistics, what do you think of these questions? Do you think they’re badly-written? Do you think they’re appropriate?
MANDY COLLINS: So far, so good! I have to say, that when I read through them, I thought, it’s so refreshing to see questions that demonstrate that someone has done their homework.
L.SOJINI: The short biographical details on you on the Puku website say that you’re notorious for refusing to trade blogs for free stuff. Can you elaborate?
MANDY COLLINS: Well, there’s a tendency to ask writers to write blogs ‘for exposure’.
Writing is how I make my living. It’s a skill I have honed over decades, and it’s how I pay my bills. Exposure is not yet an accepted currency, and if you want me to write for you, I’m happy to quote you on what it’s going to cost.
L.SOJINI: What’s a ‘procrastininja’?
MANDY COLLINS: It is someone supremely skilled in the art of procrastination. In other words, me. I am a master of this craft.
L.SOJINI: What do you remember about your time writing about television for the Sunday Times?
MANDY COLLINS: I had some great colleagues, who I’m still friends with today – in fact, I had a lunch with them just a couple of weeks ago. But from a professional point of view, it was where I really learned how to write and edit.
I was privileged to have Wynter Murdoch take me under his wing, and go through my copy word by word, showing me how to improve it. I still teach people to write using the same method today.
It’s also where I learned to edit – for the seven days of television ahead I had to produce previews of two programmes, and edit the entire schedule of SABC 1, 2 and 3, plus M-Net and Bop-TV into half a page. And if you left out the summaries of what was happening in the soap operas you’d get angry phone calls from readers. So I learned to keep things tight.
And finally, when you’re producing 14 previews and two to four pages of features a week all by yourself – you learn to interview and write really fast.
L.SOJINI: What are your thoughts on multilingualism? For this and the questions that follow, I’d love you to respond in any language besides English.
MANDY COLLINS: Eish! Does that count? I’ll answer the first part in English because it’s where I’m most proficient.
I am passionate about multilingualism. I am in awe of people who are truly multilingual, because I think there’s something really magical about being able to communicate competently with someone in their mother tongue.
I love living in a country where we have so many languages – languages come with culture and history, and that adds a richness to life. And it’s good for your brain to speak many languages – and I’m always on the lookout for ways to keep my mind sharp.
My familie is eintlik Afrikaans – ek weet nie hoekom ons Engels by die huis gepraat het nie. Op ‘n stadium was ek heeltemal tweetalig, maar nou is my Afrikaans ‘n bietjie swak. En my aksent is baie Engels. Ek moet seker iemand vind wat saam met my Afrikaans sal praat – hulle sal baie geduldig moet wees!
Ndifunde isiXhosa esikolweni, kodwa namhlanje ndithetha kancinci. Ndithemba ukufumana utitshala ukufundisa mna. (Did I get that right?)
J’ai appris le français pendant un an à l’université.
Okay, I confess – I used Google translate for the French. I’m very rusty.
L.SOJINI: Who’s your favourite writer? Why?
MANDY COLLINS: Khaled Hosseini. He just has a turn of phrase that is his alone, and he conjures up these rich tableaus. I get lost in his books.
L.SOJINI: Favourite book?
MANDY COLLINS: Hard to say. I seldom return to books anymore. But The Kite Runner, The Bridges of Madison County and The Glass Castle all come to mind.
L.SOJINI: Are you into music? If so, what music do you listen to?
MANDY COLLINS: I’m into music in the sense that I play the piano, the guitar and the steel drum – all at a very amateur level – and I love to write songs, although I haven’t done so since before the pandemic.
I’ve found it very difficult to be creative for this entire pandemic experience.
When I listen to music it probably falls into the ‘easy listening’ category. My top two favourites are Billy Joel and Lionel Bastos, and the rest is everything from classical to jazz to folk to country to pop and rock. And I don’t stream. I have an iPod but I’m not wild about it. I love my CDs and actually like vinyl the most. I find digital music very sterile.
L.SOJINI: What time do you usually eat lunch? And what do you enjoy eating for lunch?
MANDY COLLINS: I generally eat lunch at around 1pm, and most days it’s a toasted cheese and tomato sandwich. I’m boring like that, but there is no better sandwich. Fight me.
Sarah Britten
Interviews like these are ‘made’ for writers and creatives like Sarah Britten. I love asking questions, but I feel other people actually love answering these questions. I think this is because these people are knowledgable, love sharing their knowledge, and know that they have interesting worldviews.
Fascinated by the Twitter account with the display name ‘LipstickPainter’, I knew I wanted to interview the person behind it. As I read the person’s tweets, I soon later found out that the person behind that account is Sarah Britten.
Britten has worked in the advertising industry, and as a creative she writes and does lipstick painting. But what’s more, she has a PhD thesis on advertising. A very insightful thesis, I should say.
In this interview we talk about a whole lot of things – from her musical tastes to what she eats for lunch.
She returned her answers in blue font.
L.SOJINI: You play the piano. Tell me about that. And how good are you?
SARAH BRITTEN: I’m a bit rusty because I don’t practice enough, but I did fail Grade 8 – twice (ugh) – while I was in high school.
It’s one of the hardest things I ever had to come to terms with. Now I just play for fun.
L.SOJINI: You’re a multifaceted creative. We can talk about writing, advertising and painting. What do you like to talk and think about the most? Why?
SARAH BRITTEN: Usually, my painting, although, at the moment my new job is what really excites me. I’m head of brand management, so there’s a lot to get going on in terms of choosing media, assigning budgets, writing scripts and so on.
I’m relatively rare in advertising in that I’m a strategist who can write. Normally in big agencies you’re supposed to stay in your lane, so I’m really enjoying getting to grips with other aspects of marketing. Google sheets are great!
L.SOJINI: How did you get into writing and advertising?
SARAH BRITTEN: I’ve written for most of my life, and as a child I’d submit poems to the Sandton Chronicle (I was such a classic nerd). My first paid article was for Style magazine when I was 17. I wrote about buying matric dance dress in Sandton City.
Since then, I’ve done quite a bit of freelance writing, although I don’t do as much of it now.
L.SOJINI: You’ve written books. What’s your process when you’re writing a book? And how long does it take you?
SARAH BRITTEN: I’ve written young adult novels, non-fiction and now children’s picture books (I’m still looking for a publisher for the latter).
The first took me about three months because there was an immovable deadline. The second type took about six (lots of research was needed). The picture books are [a] much more unpredictable process. Sometimes I’ll produce an entire book in a week of very solid, focused work.
Others in the series I’m working on have taken more than a year, as I work on them now and then.
L.SOJINI: Is writing a book an enjoyable process? What do you or don’t you like about it?
SARAH BRITTEN: Writing novels is painful, so I’ve turned my attention to writing and illustrating picture books for children, and which adults will enjoy reading at bedtime.
I like the simplicity of the stories, and how they have the potential to shape the world view of children. All of them tackle an aspect of existence – why am I here? What does my life mean? Where do I fit in?
I used the lens of characters in a very messy bedroom (inspiration courtesy of my daughter!). Hopefully the stories are entertaining and relatable while also being deeply meaningful.
L.SOJINI: What kind of books do you read? And what are some of your favourite authors?
SARAH BRITTEN: I used to read a lot more than I do now, and I will admit that my attention span has declined thanks to social media.
My favourite author is Kate Atkinson, who I was lucky enough to meet in Sydney when I lived there. She covers many genres – historical fiction, crime, thriller, kitchen sink dramas – so she’s unclassifiable.
At the moment, there’s a large and threatening pile of books next to my bed. If books could judge one for not reading them, that’s what mine are doing.
The next book on my list is a study of an English village in the Black Death – I’m looking forward to comparing and contrasting with the pandemic we’re living through right now.
L.SOJINI: How you got into painting is well-documented. You have a TED talk on the issue; and I think I remember reading about you in The Times some years back. Do you enjoy talking about how you got into painting? I guess, I’m also interested in your attitude towards interviews. Do you enjoy them?
SARAH BRITTEN: I love interviews! Although I’d rather talk about the work than myself. My favourite interviews tend to be on radio. I never listen to them afterwards, because I hate the sound of my own voice.
I usually agree to interviews in order to help the producer, because I know how much pressure they’re under.
That type of interview, when I’m a talking head/ expert varies a lot. I had huge fun chatting about the Tinder Swindler to a presenter on 702.
L.SOJINI: Going through your Twitter timeline, I realize you have been painting since you were a kid. What did you want your paintings and drawings want to do for you when you were a kid?
SARAH BRITTEN: As a kid, I either drew to illustrate my fantasies (I was obsessed with horses, so drew loads of them). Or I’d have an image in my mind that I wanted to recreate.
I was good at drawing from a young age – I remember other kids at nursery school watching me – and that was a definite ego boost. I’m very introverted, and I was an awkward and often lonely child. The drawings were a way for me to bring the world inside my head to life.
L.SOJINI: Why do you paint? Is it therapeutic? Or you do it ’cause you can?
SARAH BRITTEN: It’s definitely therapeutic, and often cathartic, I prefer painting my reaction to news and events rather than writing – it’s harder to quote a painting out of context.
Sometimes I paint because I have a commission, and then I enjoy the process of collaborating [on] what my client wants.
Painting with such a strange and difficult medium means I often want to experiment, to see if something is possible.
L.SOJINI: Why is Lauren Beukes an inspiration of yours?
SARAH BRITTEN: She’s a South African author who’s made it big. And I love her imagination, the way her books cross boundaries of genre.
After I read Zoo City, I felt freed from my previous assumptions about the kind of books one could write, and I love that about her.
L.SOJINI: How do you choose what you’re gonna paint?
SARAH BRITTEN: It varies a lot. If I see a news story that upsets me – usually gender-based violence – I might tackle my feelings about it. Sometimes I paint when I’m battling with depression.
And sometimes, I’ll have an image in my head that I want to explore. The muse is unreliable and unpredictable.
I do return to certain themes again and again: I love tackling wildlife, the Chinese zodiac (because animals), cattle, birds, people’s pets, what it means to be in a body you don’t necessarily like, feelings of joy and so on.
I always enjoyed painting bulls because I think they’re beautiful, and the contrast between the masculine subject and the feminine medium felt subversive. Painting with a medium that is so intimately associated with the female gender (and with stereotypically female bodies) means that the medium is the message, as McLuhan so famously said.
Sometimes, I paint just because I want to create something pretty, but usually my work has an element of the political that is a function of the medium itself.
I studied critical theory at varsity in the 90s, so I’m very aware of the difference between sex and gender, how consent is manufactured, how truth is often not fixed, and how narratives are shaped (Roland Barthes is my fave, I used him a lot in my PhD thesis).
The current culture wars over wokeness – woke is a word that has been coopted as an epithet by the right, sadly – seem both familiar and strange to me, because I wrote essays on all of this long before it ever reached the mainstream.
L.SOJINI: How do you choose the colour or type of lipstick you paint with?
SARAH BRITTEN: I have a huge collection of lipstick, ordered by colour. When you’re painting with a medium in which certain colours are hard to come by, it forces you to change the way you think about colour. Should it be representative and realistic? Am I going to give myself permission to use something wild, like jade green for a riverine rabbit?
L.SOJINI: I’m wondering: do lipstick paintings last?
SARAH BRITTEN: They seem to. I have paintings from 2001 that still look good. Of course, they wlll fade if exposed to direct sunlight, which is true of pretty much any medium.
L.SOJINI: How does your painting end up on the computer?
SARAH BRITTEN: I photograph them with my phone! It’s all a bit rough and ready.
L.SOJINI: You were on Twitter much earlier than everybody. How was it like to be on the platform in those early days?
SARAH BRITTEN: Excuse me while I go all nostalgic on you. Twitter was, for the most part, a much nicer place to be back then.
Everyone seemed to know everyone else, and we felt a sense of being part of something new and worthwhile. I remember writing about Twitter for the Sunday Times, and how strange the average person seemed to find social media.
The tweetups that started happening back then were lots of fun, and I made good friends.
I was also asked to resign or take a pay cut because a mobile phone client disagreed with me over getting into social media. I proposed that we give Khaya Dlanga a sponsored phone, so I suppose it was a very early version of influencer marketing.
Social media is so ubiqitous and influential now that it’s hard to imagine a time when it wasn’t, but I’ve paid a fairly high personal price for my involvement over the years.
L.SOJINI: How has Twitter changed and stayed the same in 2022?
SARAH BRITTEN: Some background: I killed off my original Twitter account for the sake of my mental health. When I came back, it was mainly because of my job at the time: I needed to track conversatins in order to guide a strategy I was writing for a UK-based hand sanitiser brand. That was back at the beginning of Covid lockdowns, when lots of lonely people sought solace in social media.
My strategy was completely different: I followed people based on my interests (science, wildlife, horseracing, UK comedy, farming) and avoided the people I’d known under my previous Twitter handle. I chose to focus on the lipstick painting because it made marketing sense to become more known for that, rather than all the other things I do.
Over time, some of the people who followed my old handlehave followed me under the new one. I’m a nobody now compared to where I was, and I quite like it that way.
Here’s the thing. If you’re a nobody, Twitter isn’t that different in 2022. You can still find absolute gems. You can still find fascinating people who share glimpses into their lives in real time, and I love that.
I have an aviation expert friend in Singapore who mostly posts about monitor lizards, snakes and the feral cats he feeds.
I follow a UK farmer who’s just been through lambing season.
I follow black South African farmers who tweet about their cattle (Beefmaster or Bonsmara? There’s a whole potential debate there).
And lots and lots of scientists, because I love science, especially wildlife biology. The best people are the ones who aren’t famous and don’t have huge followings.
Twitter is much more established in 2022, of course. In 2022, I wouldn’t effectively be demoted for suggesting to a client that they take it seriously. Of all the social media platforms, it’s the most obvious in terms of making public discourse, and conversation, visible. Twitter drives narratives in important ways, even more so than Facebook (this is debatable, yes). But overall, being adept at using social media has become a critically important ability for brands and organisations. That’s a very big difference from back in the early days.
L.SOJINI: Tell me about your PhD thesis.
SARAH BRITTEN: I was always fascinated by how advertising shaped public discourse around South Africa-as-nation after the end of apartheid, so that’s what I tackled.
Civic (as opposed to ethnic) nation-states need all the help they can get. Advertisers like Vodacom, SAB and Nando’s made the transition to democracy a lot easier to handle, at least on the surface, than it otherwise would have been.
Trevor Manuel once called advertisers ‘craftspeople of culture’ and I liked that analogy.
Advertising is not art, it’s much too functional for that. But it has an imporant role to play even if you hate everything it stands for. My sense is that advertising played a positive and important role in creating a narrative for South Africa post 1990, and not only contributed to economic growth, but also prevented bloodshed. In my thesis, I referered to this as ‘mythology’, which can be misleading, because people assume that myth means ‘fake’ or ‘untrue’.
I view myth as having a much deeper meaning – its narrative, but Big Narrative. The big, important stories that shape the way we see the world, and the way we act in it.
The more I look at the world, the more convinced I am of the importance of narrative. If we look at the divides over Covid – masks, vaccines – or Russia vs Ukraine – you can see that the narratives we’ve imbibed drive everything about our behaviour. Social media has strengthened those divides, sadly. I don’t think we see the world as it is: we see the world as we are. As the narratives we buy into.
South Africa’s biggest problem since the final whistle of the 2010 World Cup has been the lack of a defining, unifying national narrative. Previous narratives – the New South Africa, Rainbow Nation, African Renaissance – were all problematic for various reasons. But focused, broadly constructive national narratives are useful.
In a strange way, South Africans are probably more united in 2022 than at any time since 2010. We have an enemy, and that enemy is the ruling party. Our heroes are Gift of the Givers, and we’d love to outsource government to them, because no matter how Christian many South Africans might be, we want people we can trust to deliver without robbing us blind.
In the past, WMC and RET were very persuasive, and we still have plenty of bots and true believers pushing that line. But something has shifted. South Africans no longer believe in the power of the state to achieve anything. The theft of the Covid funds via Digital Vibes was a fairly decisive nail in the coffin of our belief in a capable state.
Loadshedding is a constant reminder of how the government squandered the chance to create a better life for all. If we get anything done, it’s despite the state. We’re not so much citizens as hostages. Or, if you read it another way, we’re living in a weird libertarian wet dream where everyone hates the state. (Sorry, this ended up being a bit of an essay).
L.SOJINI: You’ve written books on insults. Was that fun? And what do you remember about writing such books?
SARAH BRITTEN: Lots of fun! But also a lot of research. I tend to regard my books as redheaded stepchildren now. I know they exist, but I don’t love them.
If I were to do it all over again, I’m not sure I’d write any of them.
L.SOJINI: What do you think is the role of advertising? And how do you approach the advertising work you do for clients?
SARAH BRITTEN: David Ogilvy, the doyen of advertising, said that its purpose is to sell. That is true, but nobody is going to buy you if they don’t believe in what you have to offer. Certainly not when you have choices. That’s where brands come in.
A brand is effectively a unit of meaning. We buy brands based on what they mean to us, even if we think we’re making a purely functional choice. So my role, fundamentally, is about the creation of meaning.
This is what I think my painting, my children’s books and my job (as head of brand) have in common: meaning is good. Meaning matters. And it is up to us to create it.
L.SOJINI: What makes good copy or good advertising?
SARAH BRITTEN: Good copy makes you think as it makes you smile, ideally. Really good advertising connects wth you emotionally. And it reminds you of the brand without creating confusion.
I’m working on a big launch campaign right now and I’m having to rein in my desire to be too clever. Nobody cares about your ad campaign, and we ad people forget that. The most fundamental rule is to be distinctive, followed by being memorabe. I also aim to reward people who pay attention in some way, even if it’s just with entertainment.
For a country whose writers have won so many Cannes Grands Prix for radio, it’s amazing how terrible so much radio advertising is. I hope to change that in my own small way.
There’s a lot of angst right now about Netflix introducing advertising. But if the ads are good enough, they’ll be as entertaining as the shows they’re interrupting, if not more so.
L.SOJINI: Are you into music? If so, what music do you like listening to? Who are your favourite artists?
SARAH BRITTEN: I love listening to music of all kinds and have pretty eclectic tastes, from JS Bach through to Erasure and Metallica. My consistently favourite band is probably Sigur Ros though.
I’m also exploring the music of the Belgian artist Stromae, whose father was murdered in the Rwandan genocide, and whose work is quintessentially French.
My daughter is at a French school, and I studied French at university, so I listen to French artists to help my vocabulary as well as discover a slightly different cultural world.
L.SOJINI: What time do you usually eat lunch? And what do you like eating for lunch?
SARAH BRITTEN: Good question! This varies a lot because it depends where I am and what I’m up to. If I’m visiting my parents’ place after picking my child up from school, as I often do, then my mother will make me a sandwich at around 3.15pm. Either tuna mayo or avo.
Naledi Matuotane
To me, content creation is writing and other content activities like design and video creation. I wouldn’t normally associate gaming – the subject of this interview – with content creation. But, what did I know? Gaming and streaming is content creation.
I guess this is my way of saying I’m ignorant of gaming. Enough about me. How long has game and streamer Naledi Matutoane, the subject of this interview, spend has gone gaming in a single session? 12 hours is your answer, but as you read this interview you’ll learn about the challenges in the local gaming industry.
L.SOJINI: How big a problem is the lack of diversity in the streaming/gaming industry?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: Locally, the lack of diversity is still quite stark. Whilst you can find women, people of colour and other minorities such as members of the LGBTQIA+ community, we are still in much lesser numbers compared to our non-minority peers.
Personally, I have seen this changing slowly since I started streaming; I think that we’ll see the numbers increase once those of us that already are within the industry gain visibility.
L.SOJINI: What got you started on streaming/gaming?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I’d never really spent time around gamers as a child but I do remember my dad buying us a Nintendo Wii back when they released. We only had three games but my brother and I played them religiously.
When I got to my matric year in high school, I got a copy of Assassin’s Creed II: Liberation and that’s where my gaming interest really started. Once I got to varsity, I met a group of friends who were all gamers and it just took of from there.
L.SOJINI: What games do you like to play? Why?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: My favourite games to play are actually single player, open world games such as Horizon Zero Dawn and Death Stranding (my current top two contenders).
I also really enjoy survival games such as ARK: Survival Evolved. These types of games allow me to really immerse myself and I enjoy the calm, ‘alone time’ as opposed to the high-stakes, mental rush that other online PvP games I play (League of Legends, Valorant and some others) give.
L.SOJINI: I guess most people play games offline. How would you persuade someone to play games online?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I think the first step is to find other friends who you can play with. We’re all familiar with the bad rep that online games have thanks to trolls, bullies and other toxic behaviours experienced online but I’ve found that if you have one or two other friends who play with you, the entire experience changes and things do actually become enjoyable.
L.SOJINI: Your Twitch handle is AndrovaZA. What’s the story behind that handle?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: My gamer tag is ‘Androva’. I came up with the name in high school during a time when I was obsessed with astronomy.
I actually wanted the tag Andromeda (the name of our neighbouring galaxy) but it was taken, so I then tried Nova (as in supernova) but that was also taken so I decided to mash the two to finally get Androva.
The ‘ZA’ simply came about because my tag was not an available username on Twitch and I wanted other South Africans to be able to easily identify me.
L.SOJINI: You also describe yourself as a content creator. What kind of content do you create?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: The majority of my content revolves around my gameplay from streams and other entertaining highlights that occur then.
Alongside that, I create humouring and relatable videos which other gamers would find amusing.
L.SOJINI: Why is speaking out loud an important part of gaming?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I feel that as a gamer, you are the ‘main character’ of your game. Whether it’s PvP or PvE gaming, you have a job to do which is to achieve the goals of the game and no one else can do it except you.
If you’re a leader to yourself or even a member of a team, you need to be able to speak for yourself to achieve your goals and you can’t do that if you’re not willing to speak up.
L.SOJINI: Do you get paid for streaming?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I am a content creator signed to a local esports organisation called DNMK Esports and as a part of the deal that I have signed with them.
I am paid to represent the organisation and create gaming-related content under the name.
L.SOJINI: What are the current trends in streaming/gaming?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I think FPS gaming is still massively popular. It’s very rare to find people in mainstream gaming who don’t play games such as Call of Duty, Apex Legends, Valorant and Counter-Strike.
I can’t speak much about other trends in general, but content from these games and other related ones are always highly popular.
L.SOJINI: How long can you go in streaming/gaming session?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: My longest stream to date is about eight hours. I stream after hours because I have a day job so I generally stream into the early hours of the morning (around 1or 2am).
As for a gaming session… I’m pretty sure I’ve gone more than 12 hours in a single sitting!
L.SOJINI: How do you handle different time zones?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I don’t actually have any international friends that I play games with so that isn’t necessarily an issue for me.
My streaming audience is mainly South African/African so the only issue I face is the fact that I stream during such late hours but there are a surprisingly large amount of people awake at the same time. I found they’re either graveyard shift workers or people who just enjoy being up at that time.
L.SOJINI: When you chat with other gamers while gaming, you also talk about personal stuff. Your thoughts on that?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: For me, this only happens with my close friends. I don’t often play with ‘randoms’ online because it’s such a coin flip between them being a decent person or not.
L.SOJINI: Some people join in just to watch. How does that make you feel – knowing someone is watching while you play?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I love it! That is generally the appeal behind streaming: being someone that other people watch for entertainment.
I’m not a god-level gamer so I tend to put more focus on general chatting/entertainment but at the end of the day, everyone who comes along is a supporter and I’m here for that.
L.SOJINI: What are some of the challenges you face as a gamer/streamer?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: Primarily, something I’ll always list as a struggle is being a black woman in the industry. As mentioned before, I am a minority and the gaming world can be quite toxic towards minorities.
Most of the time it’s not anything I have to worry about, I take my own precautions to keep myself safe but it’s not always full-proof and in times when hate speech does come up, I have a group of people around me who are always ready to speak up and support me.
Another issue is definitely mental health. Almost all gamers will tell you that they play games as a means of escape and I’m no different, however gaming and streaming can quickly become a source of anxiety and other mental health issues when you encounter toxic people or just straight up burnout by playing/streaming too much.
L.SOJINI: Where do you see the future of streaming/gaming?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I don’t think the world is ready for what the future holds in streaming and gaming. We’re already seeing gaming tournaments with prize winnings totalling millions of dollars and livestreaming boomed during the worldwide lockdown in 2020.
I think people have recognised the positive effects and possibilities that are provided by gaming and streaming and I hope to see them being used to better improve our lives in the future.
L.SOJINI: What do you usually eat before and while gaming?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I game mostly in the evening so I’ll have dinner before and I absolutely love snacking while I game.
I keep a bottle of water nearby but I mostly drink tea (rooibos is my go-to) and I snack on anything from popcorn to pretzels to fruit and also chocolates or sweets.
L.SOJINI: What do you do besides streaming/gaming?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: I am an avid gardener and I have plants strewn all over my place. I also love binging series and watching anime.
L.SOJINI: Favourite book?
NALEDI MATUTOANE: This is a strong contention between a book series called The Inheritance Cycle and The Chronicles of Narnia. Both are fantasy series.
Julian Ribeiro
Julian Ribeiro is a private chef. In this interview, he says he plans to open a bistro. But it’s not always been like that for Ribeiro. He used to work in the advertising industry, working for agencies such as Ogilvy, among others.
He’s a mountainbiker and has participated in the Tour De Tuli.
How gruelling was the tour, I ask him? ‘So gruelling,’ he responds in the interview. ‘Indeed, on day two of four, our group leader called me aside and said I should consider packing it in.’
He loves Coldplay.
L.SOJINI: I’m interested in your transformation from advertising to the culinary arts. Did you grow disillusioned with advertising? Or have you always been interested in food?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: No, not at all. I loved my years in advertising and marketing. I just felt that I had experienced and achieved all that the industry could offer me. It felt like time for a change. As I’ve always been passionate about food (I’m South African with Lebanese and Portuguese heritage, so have been exposed to an amazing array of food), it was the right fit. I’m still in the creative industry; this is just a different expression of it.
L.SOJINI: How did you get into advertising?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: At the end of my postgraduate studies, I started looking around. A friend who was a client of an agency called Media Graphics mentioned me to them. I had an interview and got the job. Phew!
L.SOJINI: What was your approach to advertising? And what did you love about it?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: A fervent love for great ideas. An unyielding belief that outstanding creativity can liberate brands and liberate people.
Good is the enemy of great. You have to push and challenge to find greatness – push each other and push clients; it’s easy to be mediocre.
I loved everything. The people: such a privilege to work with deeply talented people (especially the creatives) who I admired and was in awe of. The pressure. The pain of losing. The joy of winning. The parties. Cannes. Loeries. Apex.
Above all, the moment when something breathtaking is cracked. You know. You just know. And you sell it. And you make it. And consumers see it and are blown away. And the client calls to say how well it’s working.
L.SOJINI: What’s your opinion on David Ogilvy? And does one necessarily have to believe in the ideas Ogilvy had to work at Ogilvy?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: He was masterful. A visionary and a genius. Not necessarily. We weren’t slaves to his tenets. But you can certainly learn a lot from what he had to say.
L.SOJINI: What would you say is your proudest work at Ogilvy & Mather Johannesburg? Why?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: I am blessed to say there were many. Four stand out.
Channel O’s ‘Young, Gifted & Black’ campaign. Work that captured the zeitgeist. As someone who believes in Mzansi, in Africa and in transformation, it was special to see the collaboration in the agency bringing the campaign to life. And the greatest joy was watching young, gifted, black creatives – my friends, my colleagues – walk up on stage to receive the Loeries Grand Prix. I wept.
Lucozade ‘Give Me Strength’ by Molefi Thulo. Cos Mo! He played it for me and I was overwhelmed. I went ballistic.
Getting the call from the Cannes organisers to tell me we’d won Grand Prix was humbling.
Coke ‘Brrrr’. Who knew?! It went like wildfire. All over the world.
FIFA World Cup. Opening Ceremony. The song that our creative team wrote and recorded in 24 hours for the pitch, was sung live and beamed to the globe. I stood in the stands and was deeply moved. More tears!
L.SOJINI: You then moved to other agencies? What necessitated these moves?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: I was the MD at Ogilvy for eight years. It felt like a good time to explore new challenges. I went to Mullen Lowe as CEO and hated it – the people and culture were not for me.
And then was approached to go back to Hunt Lascaris (before Ogilvy, I had been there for 8 years, including a stint in London as Worldwide Account Director on PlayStation for 18 months); I was there for 18 months and led the MTN pitch. And then I joined a private university called STADIO as CMO and launched a brand new brand, which was special.
L.SOJINI: Let’s move to other things. You did 300 kilometres for over four days through Zimbabwe, Botswana and SA. Surely, it’s something you think of from time to time? I’m also interested to know what comes to mind when you think of that period.
JULIAN RIBEIRO: That was special! I was a very casual MTBer and had never done long distances or races. Our client, KFC, invited me to join a group of staff and suppliers on this trip. I was terrified and excited, and set about training. It was arduous, and I struggled. But I dug deep and made it.
Yes, I think of it often and want to do the Tour De Tuli again. It’s one of the most exhilarating, amazing experiences of my life. An unparalleled experience of Africa. Oh, those baobabs…
L.SOJINI: Is biking something you normally do?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: I usually do 20kms on a Sunday with my wife and friends.
L.SOJINI: What would your definition of a life well-lived be?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: Bringing joy to others. Leaving the people who meet you feeling happier about themselves and the world. Especially your partner and your children (if you are blessed to have them).
Exploring what life and our planet has to offer. Discovering new places, new cultures, new people, new cuisines, new experiences.
L.SOJINI: What books fascinate you? Why?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: Angela’s Ashes. Poignant. Moving. Real. True; Life of Pi. Utter genius; The Book Thief. Every page was a masterpiece.
L.SOJINI: Let’s get back to Tour de Tuli. How challenging was it?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: Yoh! So gruelling. Indeed, on day two of four, our group leader called me aside and said I should consider packing it in. That was like a red rag to a bull and then they couldn’t catch me!
L.SOJINI: I’m interested to know how you managed those four days. I mean, what did you do when you were not biking?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: My children wrote me special notes to give me encouragement and support. I read their notes every morning.
We were quite fortunate that our group left early. Some of the other groups only returned home late in the afternoon. We’d get back at around 14h00, grab some lunch and an energy drink, shower, go for a massage, get your bike cleaned and get ready for the next day.
The logistics were quite phenomenal. We were literally in the middle of nowhere with no infrastructure. But there was a huge food tent, full bar, great coffee, hot showers.
L.SOJINI: Let’s talk about music. What do you think makes you listen to the music you do?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: I absolutely love music. It feeds my soul. I don’t only like it, I need it.
Quite eclectic tastes. Classical. Pop. Kwaito. R&B. Indie pop. Mzansi hits. Crooners. French Café Music. Some jazz. Some house.
My favourite bands are Coldplay and Florence & The Machine.
L.SOJINI: What are some of your favourite albums?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: Peter Gabriel So; All Anita Baker; U2 Rattle & Hum; All Coldplay; All Florence & The Machine.
Carl Orff Carmina Burana; Charles Gounod ‘St. Cecilia Mass’.
Favourite songs include ‘Ndihamba Nawe’ (Mafikizolo), ‘One Day Like This’ (Elbow), ‘Vul’ indlela’ (Brenda), ‘Cloudy Day’ (Tones And I), ‘The Nearness Of You’ (Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong).
L.SOJINI: What music don’t you listen to?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: Rock. Heavy Metal. Opera. Heavy Jazz (prefer big band stuff).
L.SOJINI: Do you write? If so, what do you write?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: Not really.
L.SOJINI: What time do you usually eat lunch? And what do you like to eat for lunch?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: I eat breakfast quite late. Yoghurt and blueberries. Or toasted keto bread with labneh, egg, avo and Bovril (not all on one slice J).
I generally don’t eat carbs, so I’ll snack on sausages, biltong, cheese and keto crackers or carb free bars until dinner.
L.SOJINI: What makes a good meal?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: You can tell when a meal has been prepared with care, devotion and love. Whether it’s a simple weekday meal, or a special meal.
A good meal should surprise and delight you with deliciousness.
L.SOJINI: How are your food adventures going?
JULIAN RIBEIRO: I’m loving being a private chef. Every moment. Every gig. I’m also at culinary school doing a one year professional chef programme. It’s intense but I’m learning so much.
JULIAN RIBEIRO: And I’m planning to open a bistro. Hopefully next year.
L.SOJINI: Thanks for talking to me.
JULIAN RIBEIRO: It’s been a pleasure. Thank you. I loved your questions.
Johann Van Loggerenberg
This is the longest interview in the book. I thought of not including it, but where would long interviews live if not for a book like this?
The interviewed was done in 2016. I was still working at the internet café in Tembisa, and on the side I used to go to book launches for Books LIVE.
Johann Van Loggerenberg and Adrian Lackay were at the Constirtutional Hill to launch their book, Rogue: The Inside Story of SARS’s Elite Crime-busting Unit.
I remember seeing Ferrial Haffajee at the book launch, not that we knew each other. I guess she was one of the moderators. Judge Kriegler was also there.
My job was to do a short writeup of about 300 words or so. I did that, and sent to the editor. But I also thought: why not contact Johann and hear about what books he likes? I contacted him and I was pleasantly surprised to see so many words back as his answers.
Of course, no one would publish it, but that’s okay. If this interview is in front of you, then this book has managed to preserve that interview.
I’ve decided to put it here at the end for reasons of length.
L.SOJINI: How does it feel to be a writer? And how did it feel looking at your book for the first time?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: I don’t really consider myself a ‘writer’. When I was afforded an opportunity to do so, I simply narrated the story of a small group of dedicated civil servants with whom I once had the privilege to serve our country for during the years early 2008 to early 2014.
Since October 2014 onwards, these officials had been slandered, vilified and labelled as ‘rogues’ in a very public manner. During the two years of this maliciously orchestrated public campaign, none of them were allowed to defend themselves publicly.
It affected their work, their families, their health and their careers. Our country has a right to know that these men and women served SARS, our nation and our country with distinction.
They assisted in the collection of a lot of taxes, they helped remove a lot of illegal tobacco, abalone and drugs from our streets, and helped bring many criminals to book. They deserve no less than being acknowledged for this. They were not ‘rogue’.
So bearing in mind the legal and space limitations imposed on me, when approached by the publisher to consider telling their story, I did not hesitate to do so.
When I left SARS on 4 February 2015, I met with the last remaining members of the unit (the so-called ‘rogue unit’ that features in the book) to tell them that I was resigning. I felt that I owed it to them that they be told first. I explained to them why I had decided to resign. On that day, I promised them that I will find a way to tell their story to the public, even if it’s the last thing I do in my life.
When I received the first copy of the book in my hands (co-author Adrian Lackay gave it to me when we briefly met at a radio studio for an interview), I stopped and stood still for a few minutes. I felt terribly sad and depressed for a few moments. I held it tightly in my hands and thought back many years ago when I joined SARS in 1998.
My years at SARS flashed through my mind and I wondered for a moment whether it was all worth it. You see, whatever had been said about me (and others who left SARS, and some who remain there) and whatever has been advanced about this unit publicly, in my heart and mind, and most certainly also in those who were part of the success story at SARS, we all believed in what we did. We all served our country.
We all believed in the ‘higher purpose’ I describe in the book. We all know that 1994 only brought political freedom, and believe that total freedom in our country required the continuance of the struggle to focus on economic freedom for all who live in it. We believed in our hearts and minds that SARS was perfectly placed within government to assist in advancing the economic struggle. We all wanted South Africa to be a better place for all and tried to do our bit towards achieving this. None of us had ever intended harm to anybody, none sought to benefit personally from what we did and none of us had any other intention but to ensure that our country was a safer place for all. This is certainly what motivated me over the years at SARS, and I can confidently say so of all those officials who served in that unit.
But I also realised that the story of this unit was just a pretext to something much bigger and much more threatening that was yet to play out in our country. I started coming to terms with this towards late 2014 and early 2015.
Holding that book in my hands finally, I realised that too much wrong had been said and done, and that the truth had suffered in the detail and with effluxion of time. I realised that no matter what truths ultimately surfaced, regardless of the book, the damage and harm had already been done and the course had been set. There were by then too many red flags to think otherwise. Too many spooks at play, too many games, too many lies and too many false media leaks and stories. Nothing will ever fix that.
My thoughts proved true, since as I am writing this, the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) has just announced their continued investigations into the formation of the unit and a prosecution concerning a pension and rehiring dispute concerning former South African Revenue Service (SARS) Deputy-Commissioner Ivan Pillay.
L.SOJINI: What was the process of writing a book like, and what was the strategy?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: The process of writing the basic manuscript I found relatively easily. I lived the events, and so they are burned in my memory.
I developed a basic outline and sequence I wanted to follow in telling the story of the unit. Remember, this unit only existed between the years 2007 to 2014, a mere seven years. They occupied less than 5% of my day task at SARS and is by no means a complete reflection of my work at SARS.
I just started writing things down as I recalled matters from memory. I usually did so late at night when my wife was asleep, sometimes I would jot notes in a notebook when sitting stationary in traffic or whilst waiting in a queue and sometimes even on my phone when an idea occurred to me.
Once the basic content was there, Adrian and I would set out to find whatever publicly available records there were to add detail and flesh to the story. This took considerable time, since some background and supporting evidence were obtained with some difficulty.
We didn't really have a strategy to write the book per se. I had five basic objectives that guided me in general terms.
1) To honour my promise to those men and women to tell their story and demonstrate to the public that they were not ‘rogue’.
2) Within the legal limits imposed on me, to record for posterity and ensure that the public knew what good work this unit had done during the years of their existence.
3) It was clear to me that some persons had been driving an agenda to vilify the unit with the ultimate aim to use it against current Finance Minister Pravin Gordhan. So I considered it imperative to explain the circumstances of how the unit came about, and emphasise the fact, that other than recommend a particular concept which ultimately wasn't implemented at SARS, Gordhan never had anything to do with the unit.
In fact, the unit was rather benign within the broader context of SARS. The media had failed to sufficiently set out these facts and therefore I thought it important, for the sake of our country, to do so.
4) To try and put the facts across in a manner that wouldn’t cause further harm to anybody and perhaps raise certain questions which I believe the public in general should be considering.
5) To set out a case study for our law enforcement agencies on how small groups of state investigators can make a big difference in combating organised crime. I had hoped that the story would appeal to those remaining in law enforcement agencies who have to carry the task of fighting organised crime forward. I wanted to end the story on that note, which is what we ultimately did.
I’ve said on record before, I didn’t want the story to be a ‘grudge story’ and I didn’t want to play the ‘blame game’. In this regard, I’ve been asked in several subsequent interviews (on record and off record), why I was ‘so soft’ on the SARS Commissioner Tom Moyane, for instance. I deal with this in the book.
I maintain that I believe Moyane was lied to before he started at SARS and when he arrived there. I have absolutely no doubt that persons outside SARS and from within, participated in deliberate efforts to create the picture of the proverbial ‘bogeymen’ in his mind. So when he started at SARS, I firmly believed that he had a preconceived idea about people at SARS and specifically insofar the unit.
I believe as soon as he arrived at SARS on 1 October 2014, some people kept us away from him, prevented him from hearing our side, and ran interference on any matter when any of us tried to inform him of the facts.
SARS is a complex organisation, and he is just one man. He relied on specific people to guide him. And it’s those people who I think did not do him, SARS or our country, justice. Given all of this, some may then think I was ‘soft’ on him in the book, and I will accept that. But then, I don’t know the man, and my few interactions (ultimately just before I resigned and although belatedly in my view) with him were civil and he quite openly asked me questions about the unit which I answered truthfully. He seemed to have accepted my answers.
People with whom I have worked over the years, and even those who I investigated and were my ‘adversaries’, would hopefully all be able to testify to the fact that as a rule, I always give a person the benefit of doubt, unless proven otherwise. In keeping with this, I didn’t want to do to Moyane what had been done to us.
The fact of the matter is that we wanted the book to be factual, and so where we lacked facts, we weren’t going to speculate. So yes, sure, I do have some questions about how Moyane went about things when he arrived at SARS, and yes, I believe there were wrongs committed and matters should’ve and could’ve been dealt with differently. If they were, who knows, perhaps what happened at SARS could’ve been prevented? What has happened is all water under the bridge now. But I wanted to leave it up to those who have an interest in the story, to read the book, and to decide for themselves.
Perhaps, during future court proceedings, I may just get the opportunity to deal with these aspects which some want me to express views on now.
Today as I answer these questions, Gordhan, former SARS Commissioner Oupa Magashula and Pillay are facing very strange fraud charges. During the announcement of these charges, the NPA also gave a partial rendition of aspects concerning the unit and stated investigations were ongoing. I knew these were coming, it was almost inevitable. I say so in the book.
But I wanted people to reflect how far we have come and where it all started and what has brought us to this point now. So perhaps, in hindsight, if there was any ‘strategy’, it was unintended and played out organically. The truth is the truth, by any name.
So the first half of the book tells the story of SARS, how it came to be such a success story in our new democracy, and then how the unit came about and what these officials actually did for SARS and our country.
The second half of the book then unpacks how the unit came to a crashing end. The basic facts are that in May 2014, a former partner of mine made allegations against me and my person. There was no mention of a ‘rogue unit’. It’s simple why this was the case. I had never in my life discussed the unit with her throughout the period in which we knew each other and so she wouldn’t have known anything about it.
In August 2014, after being asked some uncomfortable questions by the media about her own role as a spy and her role in the tobacco industry, she then went to a journalist she had a close relationship with and got him to publish a story about me and how bad I was and how this supposedly affected my ability to do my job at SARS.
Then, soon enough, came the first of the so-called ‘panel reports’. First was the so-called Kanyane panel assigned to look into her allegations, and who by their own admission didn’t even afford me any opportunity to address them whatsoever, nor was I given a right of reply to their report.
They made ‘findings’ which were then leaked to the media, yet I wasn’t afforded access to that report at the time. At this stage (August 2014), there was still no mention of any unit or ‘rogue unit’. Despite this, the panel still found the allegations made against me to be baseless and unsubstantiated.
Then on 1 October 2014, Moyane commenced his role at the helm of SARS. It is then only in middle October 2014 that the media started pushing a story about a ‘SARS rogue unit’ which had supposedly done all sorts of ‘rogue’ things.
Screaming headlines and posters, almost every one featuring a large photo of me, above the fold, always quoting ‘unnamed’ current and former SARS officials, ‘internal documents’ and even ‘a senior intelligence officer’ as sources. The first stories stated as if fact (falsely so) that the unit had broken into President Zuma’s home and planted a listening device there.
According to this narrative, the initial manager of the unit had then ‘blackmailed SARS’ about this for R3 million. This story was quickly followed with more articles stating as fact (falsely so again) that this unit had operated a brothel, conducted ‘house infiltrations’, intercepted mail and telecommunications of taxpayers, were connected to the deaths of former SARS officials Messrs Leonard Radebe and George Nkadimeng, and were ‘deployed to destroy the careers of SARS officials’ Soon these were further bolstered with stories about secret funds of over R546 million, the unit buying new homes and cars, having spied on late former SAPS Commissioner Jackie Selebi and ‘top cops’, having spied on late Mr Leonard Radebe ‘using CCTV’, having secretly spied on President Zuma and Mr Radebe at a hotel in Durban and posing as bodyguards for politicians to spy on them.
These stories became more and more sensational and over time built up the narrative of a ‘rogue unit’. Hell, at some point I had even supposedly hired the services of a public relations company to assist me with SARS paying for this. All nonsense, of course.
During this entire period, none of us were allowed to engage the media and defend ourselves publicly. Soon enough, the unit had then also supposedly acquired very ‘sophisticated spying equipment’, had dubious links with an apartheid security policeman and so forth – all false. And still, throughout, none of us were allowed to put facts to the contrary to the media.
Now it’s at this stage then where the original complainant’s allegations started to merge with those of a former SARS official (a member of the unit until he was dismissed for his involvement in rhino-poaching) who in late 2009 had made all sorts of outlandish claims about the unit to the media and politicians. By then, as I came to learn afterwards, both were on the payroll of a tobacco manufacturer. And from then on these two persons began to sing off the same hymn sheet to the extent that by February 2015, both openly appeared on Carte Blanche, the flagship MultiChoice investigative television show, accompanied by a member of a multi-agency tobacco task team to support each other’s allegations and advance further outlandish claims about us.
The intricate facts about these events, I deliberately kept out of the book, because I believe they would be best dealt with in a court of law.
Then came the second ‘panel’, the so-called Sikhakane panel, who again had to look at the same allegations as the Kanyane panel, but says outright that they disregarded the entire Kanyane panel and its content. By its own admission this panel then took it upon themselves after the ‘SARS bugged Zuma’ article in October 2014, to include the unit in its scope. But this panel, again by own admission, again didn’t afford me a hearing on the media reports because ‘by then they had already interviewed me’. They also admit not having given me a right of reply, because according to them this would have ‘made a mockery of the process’. (I find this incredibly ironic as I write this response, because our President and another minister are before a High Court arguing in a matter against our Public Prosecutor that neither of them have been afforded a right of being heard or reply prior to a preliminary report coming out. I have sympathy for their arguments.)
To add insult to injury, I was denied access to this report by SARS on the grounds that I wasn’t ‘legally entitled’ to it, and so only came to read it in April 2015 when SARS released it on their website for the world to see. Yet, in December 2014, it was leaked to the media who then used this as basis to claim ‘vindication’ of their earlier reports.
Then came the so-called ‘Kroon Advisory Board’ who, despite me writing to SARS and the board asking to be heard, didn’t even have the courtesy to answer me. None of those affected by their public ‘statement’ were afforded a hearing or right of reply.
Then came the ‘KPMG process’ which SARS claimed to be a ‘forensic report’ whereas KPMG stated it was merely a ‘documentary review’ which didn’t include engaging those affected by their report or hear them or provide them with a right of reply. Their disclaimer made the report all but useless for any purpose. But this too was leaked to the media without any of us having had sight of it, and again, the media claimed ‘vindication’. Insofar these panels, I deal with aspects of them in the book. They are profoundly flawed in law and fact and some contradict themselves in more ways that I could care to point out.
But it was the initial ‘complaint’ driven by people with vested interests in the tobacco industry and later this ‘rogue’ narrative that started it all. So in the end, even though all these stories proved to be false, we now find ourselves at a place where the Hawks and NPA are engaged in the prosecution of a simple pension and rehiring contract of Pillay, investigating how the unit came about, its status they claim to be as ‘intelligence structure’ and something three or four people did or didn’t do on Sunday nights way back in 2007.
As I finished a few chapters ultimately, I would send them to Adrian who would do the first series of edits. He would send them back to me with proposed edits, additional questions and areas we had to find corroboration for. A second round would follow this and ultimately this would be sent to Annie Olivier at Jonathan Ball Publishers for a further edit. Ultimately by going around and around like this, we ended up with four parts. A prologue, the first half of the book which told the basic story of SARS and the unit, the second half which dealt with the ‘rogue unit narrative’ and its fault lines and an epilogue.
The original manuscript was almost double the length of the final published document. Mark Ronin was then brought in to edit it afresh. It went around and around like that, mainly dealing with portions to leave out and to assist with the flow. A team of experienced and expert lawyers were on board to check everything we wrote to ensure we didn’t say anything that could be legally controversial.
Some parts of the book I found incredibly difficult to write. Not because I didn’t know what to write, but because it took me back and I relived a period where I and others have suffered so much trauma. Trauma, which I think none of us have really yet dealt with.
I also found it difficult to write about that short-lived and damaging relationship I was in. I was faced with three choices with that chapter. I could either have said nothing about it at all, which would have looked as if I had something to hide, since the genesis of what later unfolded did occur as a result of this relationship. I could also have told that part completely by going ‘full blast and holding no prisoners’ so to speak – which would have exposed a lot of things never before made public – but I felt it would be ungentlemanly to do so. Or finally I could have told it in the manner in which it was ultimately published, which I think was a fair compromise.
Finally the last version was rechecked by the lawyers and just to be sure, a very experienced and senior legal counsel as a second legal pressure test, and we were afforded one last chance to do a final edit. And that was that. We started in May 2016 and completed the book in four months.
L.SOJINI: What do you hope to achieve through this book?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: I have set out my original objectives above and I believe I have achieved those to the best of my ability.
One aspect I do regret is that because of the space limitations, I was unable to tell the stories of every single project of that unit. They did some excellent work on many other matters, some which I reflect briefly on in the end notes. But space was a challenge.
Another mentionable aspect which I had to keep in mind was that particularly towards the end days of the existence of that unit (from around 2012 to 2014) we came across matters which I think led us straight into the storm. But these are matters that by law I am unable to elaborate on, and I respect that. And I hope that the reader will respect that too. Perhaps, when I’m facing a court of law, I might be in a position to deal with these aspects openly. Time will have to tell, I guess.
Ultimately it was also important for the public to know that the unit was never a ‘secret’ as made out by people. The unit featured in the media in late 2009, again in 2010, again in 2012 in a world-acclaimed book, again in 2013, always directly attributed to SARS and always in a positive light. It was introduced to the entire SARS management at a national forum. The unit members worked close with many other law enforcement agency officials and many know each other well. If anyone did a simple credit check on any of the officials, they would’ve seen their employer was SARS. So apart from my objectives I’ve set out above, I hope to have somewhat demystified how the unit was made to be from about October 2014 onwards and to break the ingrained ‘rogue unit’ label that was so forcefully built up over two years since.
I hope that some people who read the book will think ‘…okay, so this is what these people actually did...what’s wrong with that? Revenue and customs authorities worldwide do these sorts of investigations. It started as far back as the IRS dealing with mafia boss, Al Capone? So why shouldn’t South Africa’s revenue authority not also be able to help fight crime? What is rogue in doing that?’
I hope people will now know that these officials didn’t ‘…spy on taxpayers, they didn’t intercept mail and telecommunications of taxpayers, they didn’t have over R456 million in secret funds, they didn’t break into President Zuma’s home and plant listening devices there, they didn’t spy on senior police officials or politicians, they didn’t conduct “house infiltrations”, buy new homes and cars’ and so forth. I really hope the book dispels these allegations for once and for all.
At the same time I hope that people would get to understand the unit, warts and all, and realise that nobody claimed it to be perfect. I for instance tell the story of how two of the officials tried to get identity cards with fake names and were disciplined for this in the very early days. I know they may have meant well, but it was a stupid thing to do and they were punished for it. These were actual SARS cards, and only the names were fake. So whatever anybody may say about this, even if these cards were used, they would’ve still only have identified the people as SARS officials.
I tell the story in some detail, and explain that nobody used these cards in any event and were told to hand them in or destroy them. It seems some people didn’t do so, and I for one, am looking forward to hearing their explanations, under oath in court, as to why they didn’t follow that instruction and exactly where and how they used those cards, and who allowed them to do so, if at all.
To have introduced a cast of 26 characters in the book would have just been too difficult. So I made up composite characters of the 26 people. But I wanted people to know that the officials in that unit were human beings, people who are brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, someone's child, you know? I also relate where the ‘brothel’ allegation originated from.
I use a composite character named ‘Stoffel’ in the book. The one character that forms part of Stoffel has always been a bit of a rough diamond so to speak. But I don’t believe he had meant to cause harm to anybody.
Overall, I think the whole ‘rogue unit’ thing became much of a muchness. That little unit had become and been made out to be something it never was. It was never an ‘intelligence structure’ that operated like spies do. I explain this in detail in the book. But I still sometimes find people who express their doubts about the unit, as if it’s a case of ‘where there is smoke there must be fire’ and so on. I had hoped to deal with this for once and all.
The unit did discreet investigations at best, with virtually no resources, often working late and odd hours, and serving our country to the best of their ability. What they did is no different from what many government investigative units and investigative journalists do daily – they meet people who may have evidence of crimes, they interview them, they look for verification to support the evidence and look for further evidence and that sort of thing. We have a myriad of investigative units in many government departments, so what exactly was it about this unit that caused the fuss – if not what we were working on?
I accept that the fact that they had leeway to work from home might appear strange to some. But to say they ‘operated from coffee shops, boots of cars, and guest houses’ isn’t quite fair in my view and even if they did so, this is hardly illegal or unlawful. These investigators worked in the field. They worked like most private investigators, journalists and field researchers. The concept of telecommuting isn’t a foreign concept and actually quite common in the private sector worldwide. Even the IRS have workers who telecommute.
We got the idea from the German tax authority and we allowed this leeway for their own security and because of the work they did. Not a single one of the people in that unit was ever a ‘super-duper spy’ or anything like that. They didn’t ‘infiltrate’ people. And really, they are just normal human beings like you and I.
For me, it is the saddest of all that they and others are now being pursued by the very criminal justice system that they worked for and served so well. Their own colleagues and compatriots in the fight against organised crime are now hounding them. That’s very, very sad for me.
I want people to ask, if this whole thing started with the allegation that the unit had ‘bugged Zuma’ and ‘ran a brothel’, and all of these allegations have now fallen by the wayside, what the hell is going on here? Who started those stories and why? Who were those behind the clear orchestrated campaign for over two calendar years that has now brought us to a pension case, how a small unit was formed and a few Sunday nights in 2007?
I want the reader to see that there is something very wrong with this picture. Any sane and rational person will see this for what it is. And so what should follow are the real questions I believe the book present to the reader: Who started these stories and why? Who benefited and who planned it? Will the Hawks and NPA cases also include looking into these aspects of the “rogue unit” narrative and if not, why not?
L.SOJINI: How much have you gotten from the book?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: I assume you’re referring to financial gains resulting from sales of the book in your question? Very little, trust me. My legal fees have been significant, and I expect this to continue and rise in future and every cent has gone towards that.
I was told from the beginning when I started the book, that in South Africa, you don’t make money by writing books, unless you’re a very famous fiction author like Wilbur Smith or someone of that calibre.
From a non-material perspective, I can say that the support from the public has been tremendous. The amount of messages I’ve received from people who I don’t know, the nature of their expressed support and overall the reaction by civil society, civil rights activists and even former anti-apartheid activists (world-wide) have been extremely heart-warming. So what I have ‘gotten from the book’ is the overwhelming assurance that the majority of people in our country, regardless of class, race, sexual orientation, political affiliation or any other differentiator, wish for our country to succeed on all fronts. And that’s worth far more than any amount of money or other material benefit.
L.SOJINI: You co-authored the book with Adrian Lackay. As a spokesperson, would he be in a position to know about the ‘rogue unit’? Can he be innocent as he claims, whilst those with knowledge of the unit are guilty?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: Adrian was in the perfect position to know about the investigative unit. In fact, quite a number of people at SARS (both some who have left and some still there) are ‘in a position to know about the unit’. The reason why Adrian is so well placed is because in late 2009, when allegations were made about the unit – supposedly (falsely so) that they were conducting ‘lifestyle audits’ on certain politicians, including Mr Julius Malema at the time and this was because they supposedly supported President Zuma, and many of the allegations which would again be raised in October 2014 (anti-Zuma, bugging people and so forth) onwards – a very detailed line-by-line refutation was drawn up at SARS dealing with all these allegations.
Adrian played an instrumental role in compiling and drafting the documents, and then subsequently used these and distributed it when briefing various media houses and journalists about the unit from as early as 2009.
These particular documents loosely referred to as the ‘Operation Snowman documents’, are ironically the very same documents that SARS now (at the time of writing this) seeks to exclude from Adrian’s own CCMA matter that is pending. Why so I think is clear as daylight – the documents contradict the notion that the unit was a secret and illegally established.
Attached to the ‘Snowman documents’ were the original mandate of the unit, the later refined one and both clearly set out the purpose and function of the unit, that it operated within the legal and policy framework of SARS and its legitimacy. In late 2009 and early 2010, various external parties, including media houses, were briefed about the unit, its existence, its functions, its mandate and its workings and provided with these documents.
I don’t know why you make a claim that ‘those with knowledge of the unit are guilty’. I don’t know what guilt you are assigning to anybody in this context. What I can say is that as far as I am aware, nobody is guilty of anything unless proven so in a court of law and all remain innocent until then, including Adrian.
In fact, Adrian attended the very first multi-agency bust of a large amount of illegal abalone in KwaZulu Natal in mid-2007 as SARS spokesperson, together with officials of the unit, other SARS officials, the erstwhile Scorpions, the police special task force and Marine Coastal Management officials and assisted in drafting the joint media statement issued by all the agencies at the time. These events are described in the chapter named ‘Pearlies’.
L.SOJINI: Tell us about the book’s foreword.
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: I think the foreword speaks for itself. I think we were lucky to have someone esteemed like Judge Kriegler to be willing to provide us with a foreword.
Judge Kriegler, as former Constitutional Court Judge is a world-wide respected jurist and human rights activist.
L.SOJINI: Don’t you think he was too harsh using the word ‘rubbish’ to describe the nature of the questions the Hawks sent Finance Minister Pravin Gordhan?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: I am assuming you are referring to Judge Kriegler’s closing remarks at the official book launch at Constitutional Hill? In South Africa, people have died and sacrificed much, so that we may speak freely and openly. Judge Kriegler is therefore entitled to express his views on matters as he wishes and I respect that. My own views on those Hawks questions I set out in the book itself.
A question that has been haunting me for some time though (allow me to use this opportunity to raise it since I’ve never done so publicly) is this: the origins of the stories of the unit having spied on Selebi and senior police officials for instance, have their roots in activities attributed to the defunct Scorpions well before the SARS unit came into being. I’ve heard many stories about how the Scorpions conducted all sorts of undercover operations, and I even assisted the erstwhile National Intelligence Agency in a matter concerning this many years ago.
The Scorpions did so on a grand scale and had multiple units doing such type of work. Many of these officials are still at the NPA, police and Hawks and some who sit at very high levels in management are well aware of this. If ever there was an ‘intelligence structure’ outside the conventional state intelligence agencies, these would certainly qualify – so why have they not been investigated? Why have the current and former heads of the Hawks, police and NPA and the respective ministers not been investigated and charged? Why have none of those heads, former heads and ministers been sent questions by the Hawks?
L.SOJINI: Would you say the Sunday Times was wrong in publishing the stories?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: To answer this question isn’t easy for me. We were really harmed and traumatised by those stories, and it’s difficult for me to consider and compose as objective an answer as what I’d like to provide. Our media relies on whistle-blowers to report on stories and this forms an intricate part of the role of our media in our democracy. So given what has ultimately transpired, I think you should pose this question to them – their answer would be very interesting.
I also immensely respect the editor, Bongani Siqoko and some of his colleagues at Times Media Group for having tried as best they could to remedy the harm caused, albeit two years later.
Having said this, I do believe that the Sunday Times should have done more work on their stories before simply rushing to print. They know who their ‘sources’ were and they probably know that I now also know who they are.
I won’t underestimate the intellect of the relevant journalists because they are all very experienced in their craft and I am quite sure they know deep down now that they’ve been played by those sources. By now they have to know that the unit didn’t ‘bug Zuma’, didn’t ‘run a brothel’, didn’t use CCTV to ‘spy on Radebe’, didn’t ‘break into homes’, didn’t buy ‘new cars and homes’, didn’t have R546 million in secret funds and didn’t intercept taxpayer mails and telecommunications.
Even the flawed ‘panels’ didn’t confirm any of these stories. But I doubt whether any of the journalists who penned those articles would be prepared to publicly acknowledge this. I’ve met one since then, Stephan Hofstatter, and he didn’t acknowledge this to me at all.
In response to the book, the other, Piet Rampedi, has opted to assault me via the social platform Twitter, by calling me delusional, a psychopath, suicidal, accused me of not having written the book, using all sorts of derogatory terms to address me. I chose not to respond to him. I once liked him very much and had great respect for his journalistic skills. I once even remarked that we should consider employing him because he seemed such a good investigator.
Malcolm Rees seemed to have left the journalism field and Mzi wa Afrika I’ve never spoken to or met in my life.
I won’t make a big song and dance about their ‘sources’ just yet, and will save my knowledge of who these people were for the appropriate platform and opportunity. (It was for instance relatively easy for me, as part of researching the book, to determine who leaked the partial recording of former SARS Commissioner Oupa Magashula to the media, and I was able to tell both the journalist and whistle-blower to make right with him on this – which they subsequently attempted to do.)
I also believe that them knowing that us affected were being barred from defending ourselves in the media, the journalists should’ve written their articles with this in mind and reflective of this reality – something they didn’t do at the time.
I also think that with the knowledge of how one-sided the ‘panels’ were and then seeking ‘corroboration’ and ‘vindication’ from these so uncritically, was a great injustice to the science of investigative journalism. They didn’t even pick up the most basic of contradictions in the Sikhakane panel, for instance. And these were material contradictions. I’d have expected more of investigative journalists, frankly. They knew very well that none of those ‘panels’ sought a proper hearing from me or others affected, none afforded any of us a right of reply and there are a few other aspects about these ‘reports’ which would and should have been glaringly questionable to an experienced investigative journalist. So they knew those ‘findings’ were not reflective of our evidence and positions.
Put this way, when Sunday Times was accused of having journalists on the payroll of state intelligence by a senior police official in a formal report just a year or so earlier, their response was to demand evidence in support thereof. When the very same person who accused me, accused their journalists of receiving gifts from ‘sources’ to report according to the ‘sources’ wishes, and being offered ‘cocaine, holidays and cash’ in exchange for favourable stories, their response was to demand for evidence. So when it came to them and their journalists, they sought supporting evidence of claims made. But when it came to us, they just took what was given to them and presented that to the public as fact. Without any corroboration or substantiation whatsoever. I think the ‘sources’ that sold the ‘rogue unit’ narrative did so very hard and fast, and the journalists, in their haste, went to print way too quickly with whatever was pushed to them.
What I believe the Sunday Times should’ve done – (and they’re welcome to consider this still) to post their retraction, apology and affording us space to put our side across to the extent the law allowed us – was to go back and question their ‘sources’ again and determine why they had had been fed these lies at the time? Whose interests were being served and what were these ‘sources’ trying to achieve?
Just the other day I read an interesting article by City Press journalist Abram Mashego who said something remarkable. He was reflecting on the time when ‘sources’ where leaking all sorts of information out of SARS to the media about the ‘rogue unit’, including to him and his newspaper, and how it was clear to him that those ‘sources’ where definitely trying to get rid of Pillay and those associated with him.
I thought this to be a very admirable and a clever way to adhere to the Press Code obligation to keep confidential sources so, but at the same time put something out that affirmed that he and his newspaper weren’t going to allow themselves to be manipulated for nefarious purposes. That gives me hope.
So in an ideal world, given what eventually happened, the real back story should follow now and actually come from Sunday Times – it should tell the public of how the bogus ‘rogue unit’ narrative was started, by whom, why and to what end? Now that would be ground-breaking investigative journalism in my view.
Where I fault the Sunday Times in printing the stories is where they simply passed onto the public whatever was fed to them by their ‘sources’ without any attempt to verify even the most basic of allegations (such as where the supposed brothel was). I wouldn't place blame on any particular individual at Sunday Times because it would serve no meaningful purpose. What I believe is that there is a lesson here for the media in general, particularly during troubled times such as what we are currently facing in our country. I explain in the book that there were also consequences for those journalists at the Sunday Times who were part of the narrative – so there were no winners in this whole saga.
L.SOJINI: Surely they did a good thing for the newspaper to notify the public of disarray in SARS?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: Your question assumes a certain ‘disarray’ which you don’t explain to me to answer to meaningfully. So I am unable to respond to this question.
I will reiterate that I think initially the journalists may have meant well, and at first glance, of course the allegations would’ve have appeared newsworthy – if they proved to be true, that is. But of course they were not true. And that I think is the primary issue.
And also, because the story was being driven so hard, they should’ve paused and rethought what was unfolding. Basic fact checking would’ve shown them that their ‘sources’ were playing them. They shouldn’t just have accepted the word of ‘anonymous sources’. Investigative journalists would’ve said: ‘Okay, so we have an allegation of a brothel. Let’s go find this brothel. Let’s see who frequents it, who owns it, what happens to the money paid there?’ They would’ve said: ‘Okay, so the broke into President Zuma’s home? Who did this? When and how? Who instructed them to do so?’ And: ‘Oh, so these guys did lifestyle audits on Malema and Mbalula and Sexwale? Let’s go ask these eminent persons for proof of a lifestyle questionnaire and let’s see which unit is reflected on the letters.’ Or: ‘Okay, so you say you were issued with a fake ID card? Wow, so when did you use it? Who did you tell that your name was so-and-so working for SARS and why? Who gave you such an instruction?’ And then go to whomever and ask for verification. But not even these basic types of verifications were done.
What did happen, if you follow my earlier answers, is that it was the Sunday Times stories which actually led to significant disarray at SARS. Can you imagine that 55 senior officials left SARS in the wake of these stories? It’s unprecedented in democratic South Africa. If any corporate had to suffer such a fate, investors would run a mile!
I think lastly, on this topic, I tell the story of a multi-agency tobacco task team which deliberately excluded us. I explain how this task team ‘assisted’ in the ‘complaint’ against SARS and me in May 2014. This is what started it all. I also explain that we were on the verge of exposing this task team and their involvement with commercial interests and ironically, how this included precisely the things that the small SARS unit stood accused of.
In fact, to borrow from Sunday Times, we uncovered a real rogue unit, or perhaps more than one, and that’s what caused the disarray at SARS. You see, those real rogue units did have millions in secret funding, they did enter premises illegally, they did have very sophisticated spy equipment, they did intercept mail and telecommunications, they did plant listening devices and covert cameras illegally, and they did set out to destroy careers of certain SARS officials. And some of them knew we had come to uncover them, knew of them, had evidence on them and were about to strike. Now why hasn’t the Sunday Times uncovered this or written a single piece about these rogue units? There is ample factual evidence to this effect in the public domain. So ask yourself that question.
L.SOJINI: What have you achieved so far through publishing this book?
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: I have no idea. As stated, I had a promise to fulfil, and I kept to my word. I have achieved that. I have also set out my hopes for the reader of the book. It is now up to the public to make up their own mind.
L.SOJINI: What books have influenced how you see life? And what current (books are you reading?).
JOHANN VAN LOGGERENBERG: This is an unfair question, but let me try and give some sort of answer. I had to sleep on this, so you must know it took time to consider a meaningful reply.
The first ever book I read completely on my own, and by choice, was entitled Huppelkind by Wilhelm Otto Kühne which was one of a series of children’s books published first in the late 1950’s. It was after I came to learn to read and probably somewhere in grade 2 (now still grade 2). It’s about a little boy and his adventures in a forest.
Whilst still at primary school, I devoured books, often spending breaks in the library. In primary school I also enjoyed reading encyclopaedias for some reason from cover to back. I also vividly recall reading Jonathan Livingstone Seagull by Richard Bach, published first in 1970 and a translated version of The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry and their story lines.
I also enjoyed biographies and prefer them to this day. I also enjoyed books on science, astronomy and space travel. At a very young age I had dreams of being the first man on Mars, can you believe that?
I read almost all the Wilbur Smith books later on in high school. Two books which my mother advised me to read when in high school, and I’ve read both several times since, stand out. At the time, I didn’t really make much of them, but some aspects I discovered in them did influence how I view life and the world.
The title of ‘The Second Sex’ by Simone de Beauvoir first published in the late 1940’s got me very excited, but soon enough I came to realise my initial reaction was misplaced. I wouldn’t say I understood much of it the first time I read it, and it is really a hard read. To this day I find it so. But it did begin to open up for me the question of prejudice in society, how it manifests and why. I distinctly recall the quote ‘you are not born a woman, you become one’ or something like that, which really referred to how society and its structural defects and constructs define a person rather than allow individualism as standing first. Later in life, I applied this to many things – ‘You are not born a person of colour, you become one’.
The second book was entitled Holism and Evolution by Jan Christiaan Smuts first published in the late 1920’s. An equally hard read at the time, but what struck me then, and what has stayed with me to this day is how interconnected everything and everybody are in the universe. After school I didn’t really read much fiction.
In 1988, aged 18 going on 19 (I matriculated at age 17), whilst completing my national service in the police, I was one of those unfortunate souls to end up being used as ‘cannon fodder’ of sorts by the idiotic apartheid regime in the townships in KwaZulu Natal.
Coming from white privilege and having only ever been indoctrinated by the nationalist regime’s ‘veld schools’ (the ones where you were warned of the ‘swart gevaar’ and ‘rooi gevaar’ and that you shouldn’t listen to the Beatles) propaganda news and programmes, it was my first sight of a township. The food the police canteen provided us was truly terrible, and some of us quickly cottoned on to the great taste of tinned pilchards with chillies, bread and Lemon Twist as a replacement meal. The place I used to get my ‘meal’ from was a little dwelling made of sticks and mud in a township called Ashdown, just outside Pietermaritzburg. I was typically posted in this area in a ‘mobile police station’ where I did very little but draw pictures, read books, sleep a lot and on one occasion assisted in the birth of a baby when a lady came there to seek help.
The man who ran this ‘shop’ was barely older than me, and his name was Henry. We became quite friendly in time. This was during the desperate dying days of the apartheid system. Henry asked me one day whether I knew who Nelson Mandela was and why he was in prison. I knew Mandela as a big terrorist, and said that’s why he’s in prison. ‘No, no,’ said Henry. ‘What charge was he convicted of?’ he asked. ‘You’re a policeman, you should know these things…’
I had no answer for him. I felt stupid. Very stupid. But Henry was a wise and patient man, well beyond his years. He had all the reason to hate and despise me, but instead we became friends, and it is perhaps a story I hope to be able to tell completely one day.
Henry changed my life forever. The relevance of this little tale is that it came to be, that on a day, he passed a book to me, a banned book (nogal), entitled K*ff*r boy: An Autobiography by Mark Mathabane originally published in 1986.
It’s the story of a man born and growing up in South Africa in the 1960s and his first-hand account of how he experienced the atrocities of apartheid. He ultimately went on to become a champion tennis-player in the USA in the late 1970s and 80s. This book, which I shared among close friends at the time, profoundly changed my view of our country at that stage.
In this same period of my life and later, in search of some spiritual understanding, I also read the Christian Bible, the Islamic Koran, and the Hindi Bhagavad Gita. I still have my copies of all these and treasure them dearly.
Other books of note that I’ve read and which truly added value to my views of life include: Everybody’s favourite must read: Long Walk to Freedom – Nelson Mandela
Indaba, My Children – Vusamazulu Credo Mutwa (I recommend this to anybody who considers him/herself a South African or African – it narrates the most wonderful fables and stories for children of Africa, but any adult who hasn’t heard any of these will enjoy them equally.)
The Modern Prince and Other Writings – Antonio Gramsci.
I Write What I Like – Steve Biko (I own a rare older edition of this book)
Letters from Robben Island: A Selection of Ahmed Kathrada’s Prison Correspondence, 1964-1989
I started to read fiction at some stage again, but still find it rather difficult. I still prefer biographies and non-fiction. Fictional books I do enjoy are (predictably so, I guess) John le Carre’s books.
At the moment I’m busy reading the biography entitled: The Pigeon Tunnel by John le Carre, the Criminal Procedure Act, the National Strategic Intelligence Act, records of a High Court case S v Botha and Others which deals with investigations being conducted by persons other than police officials and several books on the Law of Evidence in South Africa.
In-between these, and just in case, I also look out for any books I can lay my hands on written by people who’ve spent time in jail innocently.